Well, I just made the mistake of trying another Virutemart installation, thinking maybe it could handle a simple one product line store. Within ten minutes I'm back in the errors that have kept me digging through these forums for so many hours in the past. And people are still posting this week about the same errors I've had to deal with before.
Let's face it, and I've wanted to say this before, but held my virtual tongue, VirtueMart sucks! Its the clunkiest, least intuitive, buggiest, bloatedest most frustrating, aggravating, promising but disappointing Joomla component I've ever seen, and I've been doing Joomla! since it was Mambo.
The interface is not that attractive, customization is difficult, the registration process is arduous, and the shipping options don't really work. Zone shipping for example. Tax configuration is a nightmare. Anyone who wants to try selling software and offer free trials and also sell things that need a shipping charge is going to end up mired in code hacks and hours of toil for a less than satisfactory ecommerce solution. Imagine a site that tries to add shipping to free downloads!
I would recommend anything over Virtuemart. Just create content pages and put PayPal buttons on each one. It'll take you less time and work better.
Sorry, Soeren, and everyone else who has committed time and effort to make this work, but it just doesn't. Its not a real e-commerce solution.
Last time I tried this I spent literally months tweaking, hacking, modding and every time I thought it was going to work, something else came up.
Anything but Virtuemart. I write this partly so that if I ever think about trying this again I can come here and read it and remind myself of the folly. (Although I'm sure the post won't last long. I understand. I know I'm unloading, but its my honest feedback...)
Wish I could write something nice and enthusiastic, but its terrible! I know you can respond with "Open source....." yada yada, "Community effort..." yada yada. But its NO GOOD!!!
Ciao.
John
John (And everyone else who feels the same),
I am sorry you feel this way. Virtuemart is a work in progress. With the upcoming release of Joomla 1.5, all of our efforts are being put into a fully functional Virtuemart 1.1 rollout. During this transitional stage, we are stretched thing developing 1.1 and trying to support 1.0.13. Please do not pass judgment on us until after 1.1 has been out for awhile. I personally feel that Virtuemart is already ahead of osCommerce in aesthetics and user friendliness, and if we were around as long as them, we would have a more robust system. Our teams are growing in membership and we are gaining momentum, not losing.
Soeren, you have done an excellent job so far. And I chose to spend my free time helping to develop Virtuemart over other open source offerings for a reason. I am sure the other devs agree.
I feel you are being too harsh too soon. Please let us know how you feel about Virtuemart again when 1.1 is finalized.
I appreciate the views of both posts. The team developers do not get anything in return for hours dedicated to VM. I do appreciate the work they do.
However, it is very easy to feel frustrated. The promise of 1.1 has been around for a number of years now, and it will now require JM 1.5. Many sites using VM also use a number of other componants which may or may not be possible to upgrade immediately, and we have no real timeline for either jm1.5 or vm 1.1
In the meantime it feels like all the people who know anything about theVM system are working on vm1.1 which makes trying to work or get help on 1.0.13 very difficult.
I appreciate that there are many threads asking the same questions, however the documentation is all for vm 1.1 which doesn't help them search for answers, or work out how to solve thier problems.
There are also many questions asked in the forums by fairly experienced users trying to improve VM or add popular requested features who have new questions and who need a little guidance on the inner workings of VM.
Personally i have been trying to develop a couple of mods/hacks whatever you want to call them. The response to my queries has been pretty much zero. It has been mainly how to use existing VM functions but there is noone to help. If someone could help others develop things then perhaps it would reduce the demands on the core team with reduced requests for the same features, and possibly also some code to base core updates on.
just an opinion - I don't mind being ignored - I do not mean to offend or take the developers work for granted.
Virtuemart being a work in progress by definition has some unpolished edges. I guess you, John, fall in the group of users who need those edges.
It might be true that for your needs VM does not work like you want and I can understand you discarding VM in a single stroke. However, you could also roll your sleves up to improve the code and share with everybody else and contribute to make VM the best ecommerce solution.
Agreed, it is not perfect, but it is the closest to be.
ps: I will surely never return to the HELL that OScommerce and Zen-Cart was. And as for taxes, i'm pretty sure our Brazilian friends have much more problems than you can imagine.
Unfortunately I can appreciate John's sentiments. My ONE VirtueMart site has been running for over a year, but we are left with two lingering issues for which there seems to be no REAL permanent solution. My client is working around them, but she is rightfully frustrated that she has to find "workarounds" for what should be a fully functioning e-commerce solution.
The most annoying of these lingering issues is that the PayPal notify script no longer works as it should. As such my client has to MANUALLY update her order statuses, and she continually gets those fraud alert e-mails for EACH & EVERY order which uses PayPal. There are TONS of questions in this forum for people having the same problem. I've tried ALL of the few solutions posted and NOT ONE OF THEM worked.. So for now my client must MANUALLY validate each and every PayPal order, update the order status manually, and then delete what is now SPAM e-mail that is generated every time one of her customer's pay with PayPal.
I've been told that we should upgrade VirtueMart. However, based on the forum chatter, the notify issue with PayPal seems to persist even with the newest version. So, I think I'll save myself the inevitable frustration and considerable waste of my time by NOT upgrading. I'm no longer holding my breath that a solution is forthcoming for my two remaining issues. Furthermore, my client can't wait until the much hyped new and much improved version of VirtueMart is released. Besides even when it's released, she has to HOPE that it resolves all of the issues she is "working around" now... I would like to say I am hopeful that the new version with be TRULY better, but sadly I don't see it dazzling me.. (Though I'll certainly download it, set it up on a test server and see how it acts before I make a final judgement..)
In the meantime I have to provide my client with a working shopping cart.. So I'm left with two options:
1. Hire a PHP programmer to fix my client's remaining VirtueMart issues.
2. Find an e-commerce solution for my client that is free of the issues she is now having.
I'm leaning towards option #2. I have several clients happily running ZenCart. Now while I prefer the templating features in Joomla over ZenCart's templating system, I have gotten pretty good at creating some very creative and asthetically pleasing ZenCart stores. More importantly, they all WORK.. I have spent practically NO follow-up time with my ZenCart clients. On the other hand my ONE VirtueMart client and I have been joined at the hip since I launched her site.. Frankly both she and I have both had enough of fooling around with VirtueMart.. She is has long since lost patience with me not being able to get answers to her issues.. No offense to the developers here, but at least the ZenCart developers respond to questions on their forum. Plus there is at least a VERY helpful online user guide that answers every question under the sun for basic setup questions..
I WISH my experience with VirtueMart had been the same.. I wanted it to be.. Maybe one day it will.. That certainly is not my experience today..
Like John said I know you can respond with "Open source....." yada yada, "Community effort..." yada yada. However, as much as I tried to like VirtueMart, I am BEYOND frustrated with the product.. And before anyone tells me that I can jump in and help code, let me say this.. if I could help code, I would fix my own issues and never look back.. "Help us code" has got to stop being the predictable answer shot out every time someone expresses their frustration around here..
I to am to far down a road with VM to turn back right now. When I first looked at VM there were issues like Taxes in Canada and issues around paypal and others. 2 years later I am still faced with those same issues. As I search through the forums the most frustrating thing I see is the number of issues that go unresponded to.
I am not a php programmer but I have enough knowledge that I can apply changes if instructed and follow the logic. We chose VM as we are very happy with Joomla which to is open source. But on the rare occasion I have posted problems or issues with Joomla/Mambo I have always had people offer solutions. Here I have tried to search for solutions to by issues and only find many others asking the same questions with no reply ever coming.
Quote from: addison on December 04, 2007, 15:25:01 PM
I tried VM just because Joomla is the best PHP CMS available and has a lot of extensions. VM is too far away from the term definition: "shopping cart solution for Joomla". The Developers always will say they don't have much time, the team is limited only to a few guys.....
Yep I agree.. I love the ease of Joomla sites, and VM is only one of two working e-commerce components available. I'll continue to build Joomla sites, but I'm gonna have to seriously reconsider my e-commerce options with my next Joomla site..
Virtuemart kicks ass, ive used it for about 2 years now, its the easiest and most functional cart ive ever used. I love joomla also.
www.mogbroker.com you cant beat it, i built this on virtuemart - i dont know coding but i can now tell you exactly what file does what, if not exact i can tell u which folder to find it in.
Tell me your exact errors and ill help you fix it, promise.
oh Great! Kane357, Do you know how or where do you turn on the affiliate programme?
If you help me solve this issue I´ll tell you a speciall secret about VM and paypal...
I know they did a great job, but they also inherited a great responsability, and at this point they are failing trmendously.
Joomla has grown exponentialy, so did VM. That´s the problem Soeren whas not ready for... Fast growth.
This if for Kane357.
You told us you don't know coding. By the other hand you can help us to fix erros. I am wondering how can you do that?
I looked over your website and it is a very simple one. With such of site you can affirm VM kicks ass.
Did you try to have a Wish List, to save a cart for future a order, to compare your products, and many others missing important features from VM?
The DEV TEAM should think to get more people close to them and speed up the things. There are many other new open source projects who will be available in 2008. VM will be old stuff.
I am continuing to work with Joomla and a few extensions, for a CMS with a forum and a few features, but for my shopping cart I will get X-Cart with all modules and a few custom working.
I have to say that I have been impressed by VM and its ease of use - and this is the point - to a novice user it is easy to get a pretty functional e-commerce solution up within days. To those who need more advanced features maybe VM (in its current version) is not the right solution. And this is always the problem, when something tries to be everything to everybody it will always fall short.
In my experience VM does suffer from its success - there are too many requests for help and too few developers. The documentation is ok but not perfect. I am a complete novice at developing e-commerce sites and I do feel it is my responsibility to help out whenever I can by answering questions. Also testing beta versions is a must to keep the momentum going. Its easy to vent frustrations on the forum but we all have to remember that there was only ONE developer (Soren) on this project until very recently, and that to me is extraordinary.
It will be interesting to see VM1.1 but I do think that the VM team need to look over at Magento Commerce - www.magentocommerce.com (http://www.magentocommerce.com). Too me this appears (I stress appears) what VM should be. And it could also, I fear, spell the end for VM. I for one will keep supporting VM and hope that the team can get all the negatives sorted.
Cheers :)
Quote from: Nirm on December 17, 2007, 11:30:03 AM
Its easy to vent frustrations on the forum but we all have to remember that there was only ONE developer (Soren) on this project until very recently, and that to me is extraordinary.
No Nirm, this is not good, this is the problem!, seoren should had managed t build a nice team from start instead of cloning itself for everything.
Don't worry people who are bragging will never help, will never buy a commercial solution, will always complain. They think one can have everything on one solution and for free, which I call dreaming.
So here is a hint for the unhappy people among us : before using one solution or another please check its features and see if they match your needs, if not then don't use it, but please quit complaining... VM is free stuff !!!
What he should have done is a matter for history - what he has done is extraordinary (at least in my opinion). He has put together a team all be it a small one. But the fact is that there is an open invitation to join the team so its not as if this is some exclusive club - everyone has been invited!!
I think the problem stems from the lack of support or perceived lack of support. I had major issues with customising Vm when I started out - I had limited feedback on my posts - lots of sleepless nights and frustration but in the end the simplest solution was to hire a developer and get the thing sorted. And it cost me a total of $300. 300 Thats a small price to pay for a fully fledged e-commerce site.
Yes it is extaordinary, but not enougth. The proove is:
VM used to be one of the best solutions for a small shop, now there are plenty of FREE options better than this one.
VM is no leader anymore, just because of too slow resource planing and bad assesing.
They could have build a paid "pro version" instead of hiding under 3rd level companies to make cash, even if that had meaned a fork of VM. Now it´s maybe too late and the project may find a hard time in the next month unless an extremly fast reaction.
And a lot of humility!, after all Virtuemart Is a fork of a project made to run under a fork of another project.
You can not ban people or delete threads as if you where GOD just becaus ethey don´t think like you do.
Seroen! This is not YOUR PROJECT, it blongs to the community, your actions are leading VM to a pitfall, If you really love this project, you should retire and let some fresh air to enter.
VM is good for many users, just make sure it can do what you need.
And if VM do not fill your gap also take a look at:
CRE-Loaded a proffesional fork of OSCommerce with a free version.
Didn´t know about OSC3, the king is back! God (and the community) bless the king!
I can´t wait to see intgration between OSC3 and Joomla! 1.5
Hey addison! do you know if drupal has something like Joomla has VM?
Or maybe an OSC WORKING bridge or intrgration?
Thanx a lot in advance.
Drupal has its own E-commerce solution called Drupal E-commerce. Please visit http://drupal.org/project/Modules/category/104
E-Commerce is still in Alpha 6, but I took a look and it is promissing.
OS Commerce Road Map for 3 version still has some pending features. According to the information took from their forum, it will be ready for 2008.
If you have other solutions paid or not please share with me. What a shame I am in the postion to talk about other solution then VM. Sorry for that people.
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 17, 2007, 13:00:50 PM
Don't worry people who are bragging will never help, will never buy a commercial solution, will always complain. They think one can have everything on one solution and for free, which I call dreaming.
So here is a hint for the unhappy people among us : before using one solution or another please check its features and see if they match your needs, if not then don't use it, but please quit complaining... VM is free stuff !!!
And this is the EASY & TYPICAL response that seems to run RAMPANT on this forum if anyone points out the STAGGERING lack of support or responses to questions on this forum.. I was even called IMPATIENT by Soeren because I posted a review of VirturMart on the Joomla site where I shared my experiences with VirtueMart.
Futhermore, I think most of us here were smart enough to check out the software before we used it.. So please don't make assumptions..
MY personal mistake with VirtueMart was assuming that this forum would provide support to the users of this solution.. For me, there were BASIC features that functioned funky from the gate for me, and simple questions on tweaking my cart required an ACT OF GOD to get answers.
Free or not I am pretty sure that NO ONE here expected that we would get little to NO support.. Most of us didn't find out that questions on this forum go routinely unanswered until we started working with VirtueMart. Had we known we might have approached our projects differently.. I know I will be thinking twice about my next project before jumping into VirtueMart again.. I also know that EVERY TIME I had an issue for which I saw MULTIPLE unanswered questions, I made SURE I posted my solutions when I found them so that others weren't left hanging..
I'll say what I have said before here.. Is support for open source realistic?? In my experience, the answer for me has been YES.. There are SHINING examples of open source solutions with GREAT community and developer support on their forums.. I'll give you some examples:
Joomla forum: This forum is LOADED with imensely helpful community member and forum leaders as well as senior forum members
phpBB forum: This is also FULL of helpful forum members and helpful forum leaders as well as senior forum members
Zen Cart forum: This forum has been EXTREMELY helpful, with a responsive community of forum members, forum leaders as well as senior forum members..
I personally have NO ILLUSIONS about what open source software IS or ISN'T.. So spare me the "it's free" speech.. I was just a little shocked that unlike other open source packages I've worked with successfully, that this one didn't have the same kind of community that I could be CONFIDENT I could find answers in if I needed them.. The PayPal error I recently resolved for my client has TONS of similar questions on this forum. Most have gone with NO RESPONSE, some with solutions that turn out not to work, and then NOTHING more.. The PayPal notify script isn't a NICE TO HAVE feature.. this is a KEY feature of VirtueMart.. I have never been left HANGING when I ask question sor seek answers like I have been using VirtueMart.
Quote from: pixiepie on December 17, 2007, 19:52:18 PM
The PayPal error I recently resolved for my client has TONS of similar questions on this forum. Most have gone with NO RESPONSE, some with solutions that turn out not to work, and then NOTHING more.. The PayPal notify script isn't a NICE TO HAVE feature.. this is a KEY feature of VirtueMart.. I have never been left HANGING when I ask question sor seek answers like I have been using VirtueMart.
It might be too much to ask, but, can you please post the solution to the PayPal problem? perhaps it can help other users as well.
2pixiepie
Just a question, what makes those forums you mentioned so much more helpful than the VM forum? Why are there more people helping there than here?
I have been around for some time now and I think the people helping out regularly can be counted on 1 hand. You cannot expect those people to be around all the time to be helping. As long as the balance between asking questions and providing answers is 90/10, the feeling on this forum will not change.
Also this forum has way too many boards if you ask me :)
2Yosu
The only thing I want to say is that your flooding of the forums annoyed me. Not that you had an affiliate post.
Ok, true.
Is this a...
Reason to ban me? Could be, maybe too hard.
Reason to tell me to stop? Yes, of course. Sorry I whas promoting a good idea where it seemes it could get supprt.
A Thread with 11 participants, losts of reply and more than 500 views deleted because of some "well placed" spam of one the participants? NOT AT ALL.
This whas just the frustration of a tired person (seroen) unable to deal with it´s own grown up child (VM).
Or maybe there are hidden interests undercover this small actions here and there over time?
Just cutting the wings of people that don´t think exactly as he do.
Quote from: Alejandro Kurczyn on December 17, 2007, 19:58:43 PM
It might be too much to ask, but, can you please post the solution to the PayPal problem? perhaps it can help other users as well.
I don't mind at all! ;D I already posted back to the forum what I tried and seems to be working for me.. I wanted to make sure that others at least got something that they could TRY..
I don't want to hijack this thread with what I did.. So I'll PM you.. ;) (Anyone else who is interested can find my post by searching for "Error 506" or "possible fraud")
Quote from: RolandD on December 17, 2007, 20:21:48 PM
2pixiepie
Just a question, what makes those forums you mentioned so much more helpful than the VM forum? Why are there more people helping there than here?
I can't answer why there are more people there than on those other forums.. I can say that my experience on all of those forums was that I have NEVER had a question go unanswered, nor have I found the same questions being asked over and over with NO ONE addressing the question.. Does that mean EVERY question gets answered.. No.. of course not.. but I see more of the 90/10 ratio you speak of on those forums than I have ever seen here..
Quote from: RolandD on December 17, 2007, 20:21:48 PM
I have been around for some time now and I think the people helping out regularly can be counted on 1 hand. You cannot expect those people to be around all the time to be helping. As long as the balance between asking questions and providing answers is 90/10, the feeling on this forum will not change.
Like I said.. I have no illusions about what open source is or isn't.. I understand VERY well the nature of open source and support forums.. This isn't Microsoft.. SOmeone isn't manning the 24 help line.. I KNOW that.. HOWEVER.. how do you explain the STAGGERING number of REPEAT questions asked here on this forum that go ROUTUINELY unanswered.. Also I am NOT the first person to make this observation.. We can't ALL be seeing things.. This is a REAL OCCURRENCE here.. I can't understand why every time the notion that support here is lacking is put forward, the common responses are denial, indictments and accusations, or my personal favorite, the "why don't you help code" response. (not speaking of you specifically.. this is just a general observation)
When I first came to this forum I was looking for answers to what should have been SIMPLE things for vets to address. I found that in searching for answers that MANY people had asked the same question I was now asking, and almost all of those posts had NO RESPONSES or solutions posted.. So I did a LOT of my own searching/testing for answers to my questions.. I was astounded that some of the answers were so darn simple. I couldn't believe that folks who probably knew the answer would not just POST the answer and save me the HOURS I spent to find what tuned out to be a SIMPLE answer... and it's not just simple things.. Error message questions go unanswered too.. This does not instill confidence in a product..
So while I may not be able to whip out php code, I help the best way I can.. I post back my findings/solutions when I find an answer to a frequently posted, and never answered question.. This way another site manager doesn't have to go through what I went through to solve the same issue..
Quote from: RolandD on December 17, 2007, 20:21:48 PM
Also this forum has way too many boards if you ask me :)
I agree.. It might be part of the issue with support.. It may be too much for a small group of mods to handle moderating a forum of this size..
Quote from: RolandD on December 17, 2007, 20:21:48 PM
Just a question, what makes those forums you mentioned so much more helpful than the VM forum? Why are there more people helping there than here?
It is very simple, you help me, I help you (the forum)
I post a problem, no one sayin nothing, I don´t come back, not to post more unheared problems, not to solve other´s problems.
This may not be an instant rule, but it works over time.
The game in this forums has not been to solve problems, but to kick out baloons, these are the results.
Why did this happen?, well, while Soeren is personally posing and watching the "developers threads", no one is taking care of newbies.
Results: a good aplication with a poor support. and hundreds of possible new users going away to other solutions.
To my dear friend pixiepie :
QuoteAnd this is the EASY & TYPICAL response that seems to run RAMPANT on this forum
What is easier complaining even thought it is useless or answering people posts when you can, by submitting bugs ??? Don't tell me that you can't install 1.1 and test it, submit bugs when you find them. Did you do it ? my guess is NO. YOU are easy and typical, face it.
QuoteFuthermore, I think most of us here were smart enough to check out the software before we used it.. So please don't make assumptions..
Fair enough, then you should have known what was working and what wasn't don't you? Why are you complaining now ?
QuoteFree or not I am pretty sure that NO ONE here expected that we would get little to NO support.. Most of us didn't find out that questions on this forum go routinely unanswered until we started working with VirtueMart.
There is a difference between unanswered and answered on another post questions. I have found all the answers I needed so far, and I have to say some of them where VERY specific. Am I lucky ? or Am I doing research before complaining ? FYI I have never posted any questions on the forum (that I remember of), the answers are all there somewhere...
Once again I can understand your frustration but you are not helping here. If you don't like virtuemart and like you are suggesting there are plenty of better solutions out there then what are you still doing here ? Enjoying yourself complaining ? Wanting to be reassured ? No one here have time for that sorry.
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 18, 2007, 11:17:47 AM
To my dear friend pixiepie :
What is easier complaining even thought it is useless or answering people posts when you can, by submitting bugs ??? Don't tell me that you can't install 1.1 and test it, submit bugs when you find them. Did you do it ? my guess is NO. YOU are easy and typical, face it.
And again you are ASSuming things sir.. (and not reading this whole post either) as I have ALREADY stated (in this thread) I post back my findings when I figure out an answer to one of the MANY unanswered questions I see on this forum. I do this so that the next person doesn't have to spend their time searching for answers that ARE NOT here or spend the time I took to find the answer..
However IMO, forum member's participation does not EXCUSE the project leaders from this responsibility.. Part of developing a package means SUPPORTING it.. An FAQ would be a GREAT start.. The VirtueMart documentation is virtually non-existent. IMO a good set of user docs and and FAQ would go a LONG way to address HALF the questions that are posted here..
You GUESS that I'm not testing 1.1?? Based on what?? Before you ASSume (and post accusations) about what my level of participation has been or what it is you ASSume I am doing, you should really do some RESEARCH before you respond.. (after all.. ALL the answers are here ;D)
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 18, 2007, 11:17:47 AM
Fair enough, then you should have known what was working and what wasn't don't you? Why are you complaining now ?
Really?? And tell me HOW we were supposed to know that?? I've never known a software package to list all the features that DON'T work so you know what you are getting.. But my bad.. Perhaps VirtueMart is different.. Perhaps they actually do list the non-working features, and I missed this when I was doing my research.. Do be so kind as to tell us where we might find this list of non-working features..
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 18, 2007, 11:17:47 AMThere is a difference between unanswered and answered on another post questions. I have found all the answers I needed so far, and I have to say some of them where VERY specific. Am I lucky ? or Am I doing research before complaining ? FYI I have never posted any questions on the forum (that I remember of), the answers are all there somewhere...
Well good for you.. and you would be among a VERY lucky few.. I have posted FEW questions on this forum. I have done LOTS of research to get answers to my questions only to find that most of the time I found other people asking the SAME question, but NO answers to the SAME question.. So as I have ALREADY STATED I ended up finding most of my own answers.. (outside this forum usually) When I found my answers, I would post my results back to this forum to as many of those REPEAT questions I could find so that that the next person would at least get an answer..
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 18, 2007, 11:17:47 AMOnce again I can understand your frustration but you are not helping here. If you don't like virtuemart and like you are suggesting there are plenty of better solutions out there then what are you still doing here ? Enjoying yourself complaining ? Wanting to be reassured ? No one here have time for that sorry.
Read again sir.. I neither NEED or WANT yours or ANYONE's reassurance.. I will continue to voice MY OPINION about what I have observed on this forum. You can disagree and name call all you want, but it doesn't change my opinion. I hope that eventually the forum leaders make some changes for the better.. Something they can't do if no one tells them that SOMETHING IS WRONG..
BTW, when did I ONCE say that I did not like VirtueMart??? What I have ACTUALLY said is that I don't like the LACK OF SUPPORT I have found on this forum and that sir has ALL you have heard me say.. and YES I know of a variety of other e-commerce solutions.. SO WHAT?? One web solution does not fit all clients.. For some of my clients ZenCart is all they need, and for some clients Joomla with an e-commerce component makes better sense.. Am I hestiant to use VirtueMart again?? Absolutely!! The problems I had with my one VirtueMart site gave me GOOD reasons to be cautious before venturing into another VirtueMart site.. and RIGHTFULLY so..
Now you don't have to agree with that, and that's okay if you don't.. I have to do what I think is best for my clients, and that includes providing them a solution where I am confident that I can resolve or get resolution to any problems they run across..
Fair enough m8, so... to make it short...
QuoteI will continue to voice MY OPINION about what I have observed on this forum. You can disagree and name call all you want, but it doesn't change my opinion. I hope that eventually the forum leaders make some changes for the better.. Something they can't do if no one tells them that SOMETHING IS WRONG..
The only thing I am assuming is that your opinion is known by everyone already... thanks for the scoop...and still doesn't help or make things more constructive for all of us.
Quote
However IMO, forum member's participation does not EXCUSE the project leaders from this responsibility.. Part of developing a package means SUPPORTING it..
Supporting an unfinished product... why not... but I would rather see VM 1.1 stable first, I prefer the dev team to focus on this for the moment. What do you think of that ?
QuoteAn FAQ would be a GREAT start.. The VirtueMart documentation is virtually non-existent. IMO a good set of user docs and and FAQ would go a LONG way to address HALF the questions that are posted here..
Fine, when do you start ?
Please note that when you post a question on the forum maybe, sometimes, no one has a clue or knows the answer. Whatever you say won't solve the problem.
If you want great support with no bugs and all the features you can dream of then pay for a commercial e-shop, but my guess is it won't make you happy either...
Be constructive
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 18, 2007, 19:42:02 PM
Fair enough m8, so... to make it short...
The only thing I am assuming is that your opinion is known by everyone already... thanks for the scoop...and still doesn't help or make things more constructive for all of us.
and you sir are entitled to your opinion.. However, you assumed WAY more than that in your previous post..
You don't think that pointing out a problem is constructive?? I don't agree with this approach.. How else do you resolve a problem if you don't IDENTIFY it.. The issue for you is that you don't think there is a problem here.. That's fine.. You are certainly entitled to YOUR opinion.. I happen to disagree.. That's the beginning and the end of it..
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 18, 2007, 19:42:02 PMSupporting an unfinished product... why not... but I would rather see VM 1.1 stable first, I prefer the dev team to focus on this for the moment. What do you think of that ?
Clearly in the last year, the VirtueMart team efforts have been split between development of 1.0.x and 1.1. So it doesn't look like that's what the team is doing, and if they did make that decision then so be it..
However, to address your hypothetical question.. I think that
IF the VirtueMart team has decided to focus it's efforts ONLY on development and stabalizing 1.1, they should inform the community.
IF this is what the VirtueMart team decides to do, then the community should be informed. This way they will know that they can expect NO SUPPORT for VirtueMart 1.0.x because the team is focused on 1.1 dev. After all, we now know (if you've been keeping up with the announcements) that the 1.1 development is now going to focus solely on compatibility with Joomla 1.5.. The team responsibly informed the community so that folks know that if they plan to upgrade to VirtueMart 1.1, they must also upgrade to Joomla 1.5..
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 18, 2007, 19:42:02 PM
Fine, when do you start ?
Many have posted here that the documentation is inadequate.. Should we all volunteer to write a document because we NOTICED it and pointed it out?? Should we just say nothing and let the development team think that the documentation is OKAY?? Again, pointing out an issue is how you get things resolved.. Your response is typical of what I see here.. If anyone points out an issue we are dismissed because we are not writing code or documents.. I submit that this kind of response is not constructive... ;)
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 18, 2007, 19:42:02 PMPlease note that when you post a question on the forum maybe, sometimes, no one has a clue or knows the answer. Whatever you say won't solve the problem.
Thanks for pointing out the OBVIOUS.. However, I am not speaking of questions for which NO ONE has the answer.. I am talking about issues I see posted for which there are easy answers, and NONE are given.. Simple questions like how to not round off your pricing, or how to set the product browse pages in the product setup and admin so that the layout appears correctly.. or even the darn PayPal notification script.. I'm talking about post after post of questions regarding poorly working BASIC features.. 80% of the problems I had and searched for was greeted with pages of similar questions already posted by other members.. Most of of these posts went unanswered..
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 18, 2007, 19:42:02 PMIf you want great support with no bugs and all the features you can dream of then pay for a commercial e-shop, but my guess is it won't make you happy either...Be constructive
and there you go GUESSING again.. You ASSume way too much here.. AS I'VE ALREADY STATED IN THIS THREAD, I am WELL AWARE of what the risks are with open source software.. So spare me the commercial software dismissal. If you consider my thoughts to not be constructive, cool.. You are entitled to your opinion.. I too am entitled to mine, and I will continue to express that SAME opinion without calling names or making ASSumptions about those who do not agree with me.. I will continue to campaign for great support here because I know it is possible -- even with open source software.. If you are happy with the support here AS IS, then good for you.. I just don't happen to agree..
OMG you still don't get it do you ??
1. EVERYONE is aware of YOUR "opinion", absolutely everyone. So you can point out as long as you want IT WONT CHANGE A DAMN THING !!!!
2. Instead of ruining your keyboard pointing out, my friend, once again, you should start asking yourself how YOU can make this better. If you think building a community around a product is easy, if you think providing decent support while developping at the same timeis easy then fine... it's your opinion.
3. My opinion is that if it is that easy then you should make it happen pixiepie...if you don't then bear with the dev team because they are doing a great job and I think you should respect that. If the support is not up to your high standards then make it, or at least try, if you eventually fail I will still applause because at least you were trying.
If you can't understand these simple points there is nothing VM dev team or even VM community can do for you...
Cmon, you both have your point! This whas ( and can continue being) a very interesting thread with lot´s of different points of view of "what´s up in VirtueMart"
Why don´t you do your personal discussion in a private thread?
Thanx in advance... ;-)
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 19, 2007, 11:35:04 AM
OMG you still don't get it do you ??
1. EVERYONE is aware of YOUR "opinion", absolutely everyone.
Everyone?? Really?? EVERYONE.. Wow.. LOL
I don't get it?? I get your point just fine.. I just don't agree with you.. Simple..
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 19, 2007, 11:35:04 AM
So you can point out as long as you want IT WONT CHANGE A DAMN THING !!!!
Well too bad you think that.. I am of the mindset that if you say NOTHING, then NOTHING will happen.. You can choose to disagree with that.. I on the other hand am FREE to express my opinion on this matter just as you are FREE to disagree..
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 19, 2007, 11:35:04 AM2. Instead of ruining your keyboard pointing out, my friend, once again, you should start asking yourself how YOU can make this better. If you think building a community around a product is easy, if you think providing decent support while developping at the same timeis easy then fine... it's your opinion.
And there you go ASSuming again.. Just becasue I disagree with you, you ASSume I don;t contribute to the community.. I make my own contributions in my own way, and I'm not sure WHEN I ever said that ANY of this was easy.. I think my concern was about support..
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 19, 2007, 11:35:04 AM3. My opinion is that if it is that easy then you should make it happen pixiepie...if you don't then bear with the dev team because they are doing a great job and I think you should respect that. If the support is not up to your high standards then make it, or at least try, if you eventually fail I will still applause because at least you were trying.
If you can't understand these simple points there is nothing VM dev team or even VM community can do for you...
Again another ASSumption on your part based on things I NEVER said.. Only what you ASSume I meant.. I never ONCE said the dev tem wasn't doing a good job, but merely that there is MORE work to be done.. Mainly in the area of support of the product.. Now again you can disagree all you like.. It still does not change my opinion.. And AGAIN, IMO the
PRIMARY responsibilty for support falls on the project leaders not the community members. Many members of the community will assist in the support effort, but that should not be a substitute for the project leaders supporting their own project. Now if you disagree with that, then we will have to just agree to disagree..
Quote from: Yosu on December 19, 2007, 17:56:55 PM
Cmon, you both have your point! This whas ( and can continue being) a very interesting thread with lot´s of different points of view of "what´s up in VirtueMart"
Why don´t you do your personal discussion in a private thread?
Because simply put this is not a personal discussion, and the last time I looked we were still on topic with the original post.. With all due respect, if this back and forth banter disturbs you, you can choose to ignore El Fanjo's and my posts..
pixipie, I would like to draw your attention to the following quote from aravot today
QuoteVirtueMart development (coding) team consist of 2 active members, you don't expect them to do everything, provide email and PM support, forum support, do quality testing (finding bugs), write documentation, write FAQ, do coding, write from scratch new features and at the same time go on with their daily life.
Further if you look on the forum you will find that Soeren turned to the community in 2005 to assist in this project and to date the dev team is still tiny. That is not to say people do not help, however, VM is a victim of its own success, you only have to look at the number of posts/downloads and the magnitude of the task becomes apparent.
Constructive criticism is always beneficial and you have every right to express your thoughts. Certainly my experience of the forum has been totally different to yours. I have had 99% per cent of my questions answered (admittedly some took time to get answered) and when not I have hired devs through this forum. I have managed to create a bug free site and through this I have picked up a lot about how VM functions, which I am happy to say I pass on everyday.
It is easy to say that other OS carts do not have similar problems, however I don't think it is fair to compare VM to them. VM exists inside of Joomla and that must add an immense extra layer of complexity which other carts do not have to contend with. This in itself must suck up a lot of time and effort.
Personally I think VM dev team should seriously consider charging a small amount. This will provide valuable funds for the project and further incentive to improve services.
So in essence lets stop the arguing and download a nightly build get testing and get on with collectively making things better
Cheers :)
Quote from: Nirm on December 19, 2007, 21:44:25 PM
pixipie, I would like to draw your attention to the following quote from aravot today
QuoteVirtueMart development (coding) team consist of 2 active members, you don't expect them to do everything, provide email and PM support, forum support, do quality testing (finding bugs), write documentation, write FAQ, do coding, write from scratch new features and at the same time go on with their daily life.
Further if you look on the forum you will find that Soeren turned to the community in 2005 to assist in this project and to date the dev team is still tiny. That is not to say people do not help, however, VM is a victim of its own success, you only have to look at the number of posts/downloads and the magnitude of the task becomes apparent.
I understand very well what the cause of the issue is.. Knowing this doesn't make it less frustrating from my point of view.. From what I've read, I've no doubt this project took on a life of it's own, and I do applaud the team for doing what they've done with limited resources.. Software development is no doubt a thankless job. So all I can all wish for is that going forward things will only get better.. So far Joomla 1.5 with VirtueMart 1.1 looks very promising.. I'm optimistic.. Seems like the team has responded to the many requests for certain basic features. This is a good thing..
Quote from: Nirm on December 19, 2007, 21:44:25 PM
Constructive criticism is always beneficial and you have every right to express your thoughts. Certainly my experience of the forum has been totally different to yours. I have had 99% per cent of my questions answered (admittedly some took time to get answered) and when not I have hired devs through this forum. I have managed to create a bug free site and through this I have picked up a lot about how VM functions, which I am happy to say I pass on everyday.
You get no argument from me.. I understand that the team is taxed, and yes my experience on this forum has been very different than yours.. However that didn't stop me, and like you I managed to get a MOSTLY bug-free site up (just resolved my one last niggling issue this weekend). I've learned a lot, and I too have shared what I've learned when/where it was appropriate. One thing I've decided is that if I take on another VirtueMart site (using 1.0.x), I will not do it without a developer in my hip pocket..
Quote from: Nirm on December 19, 2007, 21:44:25 PMIt is easy to say that other OS carts do not have similar problems, however I don't think it is fair to compare VM to them. VM exists inside of Joomla and that must add an immense extra layer of complexity which other carts do not have to contend with. This in itself must suck up a lot of time and effort.
Fair enough.. However, you should understand that I do realize that there are differences between VirtueMart and other open source carts. I was not comparing the products, only the support for those products..
Quote from: Nirm on December 19, 2007, 21:44:25 PM
Personally I think VM dev team should seriously consider charging a small amount. This will provide valuable funds for the project and further incentive to improve services.
And I think this is an excellent idea.. I'm sure that many many community members would gladly pay for development.. I know I would..
Quote from: Nirm on December 19, 2007, 21:44:25 PM
So in essence lets stop the arguing and download a nightly build get testing and get on with collectively making things better
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts (minus the accusations..) FYI.. I'm already testing 1.1 ;)
QuoteOne thing I've decided is that if I take on another VirtueMart site (using 1.0.x), I will not do it without a developer in my hip pocket..
It makes a lot of sense now... obviously if you are not a developer I can understand your frustration.
VM is a work in progress and needs a lot of coding to customise (for my needs at least). Maybe VM is not the proper solution for you (not yet) and you should reconsider using it because you will never find any support or any documentation on features that are still to come or that are not working properly...
Arguing for ages will not make it any better... whether you like it or not.
Quote from: El Fanjo on December 20, 2007, 13:05:05 PM
QuoteOne thing I've decided is that if I take on another VirtueMart site (using 1.0.x), I will not do it without a developer in my hip pocket..
It makes a lot of sense now... obviously if you are not a developer I can understand your frustration.
VM is a work in progress and needs a lot of coding to customise (for my needs at least). Maybe VM is not the proper solution for you (not yet) and you should reconsider using it because you will never find any support or any documentation on features that are still to come or that are not working properly...
Arguing for ages will not make it any better... whether you like it or not.
For the record.. I wasn't arguing.. I was stating my opinion/experiences, you were intent on debating the merits of me expressing my thoughts/experience.. I'm gonna leave this as we'll have to agree to disagree..
Nope I'm not a developer.. I am a webdesigner/business analyst with enough knowledge of php to do MINOR fixes.. (and for the record, I'm not the only non-developer using this tool..)
I'm not gonna agree with you that VirtueMart is not for me.. I will decide that on a client by client basis.. It was the right solution for my one client.. I learned some very painful lessons in getting it to all come together, and I know what to expect now.. Now that I've got one VirtueMart site behind me, I know that IF I venture into another VM 1.0.x site to NOT expect support (unfortunately), and to keep a developer in my hip pocket for any new bugs I may encounter (I've got fixes/workarounds for any bugs I've already run into). Featurewise, there are things VirtueMart is lacking (product attributes is awkward IMO), but they are either not features my clients are asking for or I have other solutions for them so I don't anticipate that I'll need any custom development IF I use ver 1.0.x of this tool again.. Personally I'm hoping that ver 1.1 is released before I ever have to do another site with VirtueMart.
I was asked to help export .csv files from VirtueMart in order to interface a clients website with our software. Having worked similarly with OScommerce I estimated the amount of time it would take etc. and set to the task in hand
I discovered JamboReport and then RokReporter and was really pleased. I managed to get all the fields I wanted to export by joining tables or by creating dummy fields where needed. However, having run the export from my localhost xampp install and being really impressed, I installed it on the client system and it promptly fell flat on its face.
All I need is a bit of correction but have had next to no help whatsoever and it genuinely seems like nobody reads the problems.
http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=24040.msg107272#msg107272
This question is my latest in a long series (check the previous ones in that thread!) and it is concerned with an issue raised over a year ago - an issue which, i find it impossible to believe, would be any trouble for somebody with more expertise and experience than to handle in no time at all
As the process has drawn on and on and the client has had his patience tested more and more I have to concede that VM in its current state could never be an option for me in the future. OScommerce was trickier to setup initially but I had masses of help whenever I needed it and will most likely be returning to OSc as soon as I've sorted this godforsaken date issue in VM!!!
Quote from: ((pete)) on January 03, 2008, 17:06:02 PM
ll I need is a bit of correction but have had next to no help whatsoever and it genuinely seems like nobody reads the problems.
I bet not everybody has time to read each and everyone of the posts made. However by peeking at the thread I wonder if RokReport is really that popular with VM users. You might want to ask the RokReport forums instead.
About the support/no support issue, I believe one must consider the whole package: application functionality, developer support, community support, etc to make the decision of going with a solution for your online shop needs, SPECIALLY if you don't pay for it.
If it has great functionality but poor support, better consider hiring a developer.
If it has poor functionality but great support better consider extra coffee for long nights.
If it has none, choose something else.
If it has both, well, let us know where!!!
The VM product/community is what it is, and no level of screaming is going to change it one way or the other. The way I see it, it will only change when we somehow give something back to it, but for "something" I mean a piece of work that can be used by others. That's how you build a castle: brick by brick. If this is not acceptable, well, you might want to checkout the other castles around.
Quote from: Alejandro Kurczyn on January 03, 2008, 21:39:23 PM
You might want to ask the RokReport forums instead.
I did mate, I've tried absolutely everywhere with a silence resounding from all corners of tinternet
Personally, VM was never my choice. After assessing what was out there it was clear to me that OSCommerce was a far more viable solution boasting a very helpful and lively support forum and even companies offering dedicated OSC hosting. Consequently, this client I am helping will be my only contact with VM and I couldn't hope to recommend it to other people as a result of my frustrations with it. The client also commented that it was "a nightmare trying to get it right in the first place" and, from my experience with it, I find it impossible to disbelieve that
Pete,
You are reversed with me. While you are turn away from VM to OSc, I turned away from CRE Loaded (believe me you will be in great frustration with OSC, CRE Loaded is much better because it is preinstalled with more than 75 major contributions) to VM.
I've been using OSC for quite sometime and everytime I want to install a contribution, it was very difficult. A lot of hacks and even recoding must be done. For example: I want to install BTS v1.5f (the latest), Infobox_Admin_v2.25, QTPro_v4.3 and SPPC_Price_Break_v102. And you know what, I got a lot of conflicts and mess up. Every contribution was made based on clean OSC installation. So once you have installed contributions, it'll be hard to install another contribution.
And don't forget, in OSC and its derivatives, register_global is ON. Believe me, even me (I'm not a coder) can break all OSC sites because of it. Of course there is Register_Global contribution to fix this, but believe me once you install this, thousands other contributions will not work unless you want to recode all the PHP4 coding in all 8000 or so files.
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As I just said in another thread - Instead of us bitching about not having features in a FREE product, why don't the masses of us start a chip in www.chipin.com and make small donations to the project?? This will certainly free up time for the developers I would think? Heck, we Ron Paul supporters massed together and raised $20 million for him at the end of 2007. I would think that we could raise a few thousand at least for Virtuemart ;D
Good idea. How many will join? My suggestion: Start a new thread to ask how many people will join then stick it on the homepage. I myself will prefer to donate via credit card than paypal. Don't ask why. Personal issue.
Shared SSL; that describes how I feel about Virtuemart / Joomla. Someone somewhere really made a bad decision that has sent me back down the Oscommerce route. Until then I was more than happy with Virtuemart. How could such a mistake happen?
Quote from: kane357 on December 16, 2007, 06:14:34 AM
Virtuemart kicks ass, ive used it for about 2 years now, its the easiest and most functional cart ive ever used. I love joomla also.
you cant beat it, i built this on virtuemart - i dont know coding but i can now tell you exactly what file does what, if not exact ian tell u which folder to find it in.
Tell me your exact errors and ill help you fix it, promise.
okay, here's a challenge for you if you think you can fix problems, I hope you can.
I have just installed virtuemart 1.0.15 The e-commerce addition, it actually contains the full Joomla package which seemed quite good. I have done a couple of other Virtuemart site so it's not new to me. However, I notice the new addition in the menu item set up, it enables you to link straight to a categorywhich seems really good. however, after I have written the menu item and selected which category, I then press save, all I get is a message telling me I'm not authorised to view this resource
So I can't go any further at the moment which is most annoying