Mod comment: splitted post
Oke. I read you're post. It tells that is also can reload with javascript but the example is showing a new url for every child, hope this is not the only way to go.
I use the plugin now to have stock control and the user can select the size of a product. How would you solve this with the generic child variant, I don't see it. I can only choose between name, SKU etc but I want them to choose a size and not to reload the page.
...
I have read it many times but the things is that I don't want separate urls for every size of a product. I want one url to the parent product and then choose a size, but I want to keep the stock control. I can't think of a situation you want a separate url for every product per size. I can imagine you want to get rid of the plugin but isn't there any function which can update the information underneath, without changing the url? The text on the site would give you the impressions that you have this choice but I didn't found that option.
uuhm. What is the disadvantage to have an own URL per variant? and what are the positive effects? Can you explain? We may can add some tag, saying searchengines, that this is a variant of (if existing).
My 2 pennies worth
QuoteWhat is the disadvantage to have an own URL per variant? and what are the positive effects?
My thought as well - this fixation with url construction has never impressed me as valid... Google isn't dumb - the url is just a small part of it's indexing/ranking system.
e.g. Google 'T-shirt' -> look at the top returned t-shirt shops and then at their urls for a t-shirt.. pretty they aren't - change often between product details and the product link in cart or wishlist save, category views etc - and always different between sizes and colours...
And these are the top returned sites for this search
IMHO good SEO is about content that lets Google understand what it's looking at and organic back linking - not endless url fiddling
The site you refer at are using variables like ?size=, the size is not in the url like it will be now. And what about duplicate content, when you index all the child products as separate products. A color or pattern/print for a t-shirt is a different product in my opinion, a long sleeve t-shirt in White or black are different but in size it stays a white or black t-shirt. So I think you really have to see the different between what kind of custom variable you are using.
different urls where the content / product name / meta description etc remain the same are not a good thing for seo
Quote from: Milbo on August 08, 2014, 08:31:57 AM
uuhm. What is the disadvantage to have an own URL per variant? and what are the positive effects? Can you explain? We may can add some tag, saying searchengines, that this is a variant of (if existing).
Well, in my example, with the sizes, the disadvantage is that the childproducts are not unique and don't earn to have a unique url. When you have a unique url you also want to have unique content, etc. You are not going to switch picture or something else when you select another size. If you take color, yeah, than I could agree with you. The positive effects? Don't get to many different product pages / urls that don't make sense, you need to have you're canonical setup perfect if you are going to do this. But than, why refresh the whole page for only the size and maybe 2 other things? Hope it helps:)
What is with the idea to set the canonical URL of the parent?
That could be an option, but I still think it's better to not have different url's, what it the effort to have separate url's, it's not nice to have them indexed in search engines, you have to exclude them in sitemaps, you have unneeded reloads of your page and extra bandwith and in my opinion not a nice user experience with reloading a page with just selecting a size.
I hope you can reconsider this and I am also curious why you choose to not use ajax reload but with a whole page reload.
I think I understand the issue Guido is trying to put across, the individual URL for each variant isn't really the issue but more that when you are not using the stockable plugin and choose child variants instead it does a full page load per custom field rather than AJAX load like the stockable plugin. Being honest it is something that bugs me a little too as I like the idea of each child having it's own URL and content but for me at least the full page load means I do not use that side of the config in favour of fast AJAX loading
Bunglehaze, did you try vm3? I doubt it, cause we have the ajax there, exactly the reason we removed the stockable
To clarify, the stockable and the generic child variant are for the same purpose and they use the same idea. List children in a dropdown!
The generic child variant was missing the ajax, while the stockable was missing to load the products correctly. So we have now in general the ajax for the productdetail, therefore we dont need the stockable anylonger.
Having the same link for a product with 50 variants is actually, very, very bad. For example your customers cannot give a link to a friend and say "what do you think aobut it", no they have to say, click on the link. do this and that, what do you think about it.
Furthermore in a real store, an own variant should have an own SKU. So it is physically another product and should be treated like that. Variants are just like minicategories, actually.
I have only tried vm3 a few times but not earlier on in the builds and with limited success to be honest Milbo and could never get it working right, I have been waiting patiently for stable before I get testing again as I am too busy to afford the time currently.
I am glad to hear that AJAX is now working and removed the need for stockable though. As soon as I can get chance I'll try the latest release on a copy of my site
Check here please http://dev.virtuemart.net/attachments/download/764/com_virtuemart.2.9.9_extract_first.zip
and since vm2.9.8a our own store is running with vm3.
Please read here for more info about variants http://docs.virtuemart.net/tutorials/product-creation/186-derived-products-product-pattern-child-products.html
I havn't seen any other shop that has product links for every size of a product and how are you going to name it, every child product will get the name size M, Size L? I really think you have to make a difference between the usage of custom fields. In my opinion it's a step back in usability. Also the migration from VM2.6 to VM3 will be a lot of work, but that's something else.
why it is a lot of work? There is almost no work todo? I think you do misunderstand there something.
The stockable and the generic dynamic variants are interchangeable. If you want to change this for 50k products, I do it for a 10 minutes ticket.
As long I can see no facts and no knowledge. Actually it is not something you need to bother about. and you do not even answer the suggested solution http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.de/2009/02/specify-your-canonical.html
I have to change all names of my child products because that are the ones you show in the selection box in something like "my boots size 9", "my boots size 10", etc. Second I have to make a generic child variant and assign it to every parent product I have. Third deleting the plugin at every product. And offcourse changing the templates, urls, etc, but that is something I can live with.
Canonical urls can indeed be use to tell google that you have duplicate content and that you have a parent page which you have to get the information. But I would use this kind of stuff like when the same product is in different categories or when you add some more information like the tracking. And how are you going to do it when people are not using size like in my case but colors? Than the child product is different and maybe they do not want a canonical to the parent product. You really have to look at the kind of custom field you use. Colors makes a different product, sizes not. Like when you have another color t-shirt you also want to make you're meta description different from other colors.
Maybe we could find a way we both could live with. Like adding an extra size variable to a child product that can be choosen on the parent product page. Why not look for solutions in other e-commerce systems, how do they handle this.
Milbo
QuoteHaving the same link for a product with 50 variants is actually, very, very bad. For example your customers cannot give a link to a friend and say "what do you think aobut it", no they have to say, click on the link. do this and that, what do you think about it.
different urls where the content / product name / meta description etc remain the same are not a good thing for seo in fact, they are the very bad for seo.
Sharing an URL with a friend to say what do you think "hmm" I would prefer google to rank me favourably so I did not have to depend on people sharing my links to sizes/colours etc
If it si a different SKU then of course it might need to be a new url
Of course, whatever is done generically will never please everyone.
Quote from: GuidoS on August 16, 2014, 15:03:05 PM
I have to change all names of my child products because that are the ones you show in the selection box in something like "my boots size 9", "my boots size 10", etc. Second I have to make a generic child variant and assign it to every parent product I have. Third deleting the plugin at every product. And offcourse changing the templates, urls, etc, but that is something I can live with.
Thank your for this explanation, I think we get a lot nearer to our problem.
The "stockable plugin" and the "generic child variant" uses the SAME technique and is the almost the same thing. Both work with derived products of a parent product. In both cases any combination is referenced to one product.
What is the real difference, between cart variant and the other both technics (stockable, generic child variant)
a) We organise the variants having customfields cartvariants, which works like an extra attribute of a product.
b) We organise a variant as product.
The stockable plugin, creates a new derived product. If you use the generic child variant, you just create a child product. The difference is mainly the GUI, which should be enhanced, of course. But there are some small issues in detail. The stockable does not store the new price, it adds always the difference dynamically on the derived product. The generic child variant just assumes that you store directly the new price. If you change your product weights, the stockable is not working with that, it does not really reload the whole product, the js just replaces some parts. So the stockable is quite handy, but a bit hacky and not working clean.
Variants are own products. That you say a different color is another product, but different size is not another product, is in your case maybe so, but not in the next case. If you want to have variants, which are not other products (for example a print on a t-shirt) then use the cart variant for that http://docs.virtuemart.net/tutorials/product-creation/81-product-custom-fields-without-stock-control.html.
The thumb rule is:
I have different piles in my warehouse for my variants => real product => stockable/generic cart variant
I have one pile or I am not interested in stock => cart variant
As I already said before, the both methods stockable plugin and generic cart variant are interchangeable. You can just replace the old customfields (stockable) with the new one. If you want todo that for all products, it is just one sql doing it. I see, we need a Migrator button for that.
But indeed there are two problems left, which I understood due your explanation. The first problem are the labels on the dropdown. The stockable variant stores the description extra. On the first view very handy, but it is not referenced to the product. The idea of the generic child variant is to create the dropdown generically by the selected attribute. This works in VM3, but not vm2.6. Now I also get better your problem with it. There is also the idea to add an option to decide if you want for two attributes only one dropdown (green Size 10, green Size 12, ... ) or two dropdowns.
So in VM3, the dropdown is working with different attributes, read out of the product itself.
So if you select length, then it should directly display the length of the product. But still missing to be able to replace the "stockable" plugin is indeed that you can define your own attributes. The idea was to display as option any suitable customfield.
The stockable has also better solved the problem to show all combination. I wanna add this for VM3, indeed. All the infrastructure we need for that is in written in VM3. It is very easy to add new options and parameters to the "generic cart variant" now.
Quote from: GuidoS on August 16, 2014, 15:03:05 PM
Canonical urls can indeed be use to tell google that you have duplicate content and that you have a parent page which you have to get the information. But I would use this kind of stuff like when the same product is in different categories or when you add some more information like the tracking. And how are you going to do it when people are not using size like in my case but colors? Than the child product is different and maybe they do not want a canonical to the parent product. You really have to look at the kind of custom field you use. Colors makes a different product, sizes not. Like when you have another color t-shirt you also want to make you're meta description different from other colors.
So as far I can see, we notice the problems due the same URL, but the same URL is not the problem. When you have another variant, then it is another product. If google creates an hash over the content, it has not the same hash. ... at least the id of the product is different.
Canonical URLs are done for that and solve this completly and we have them already, because a product can be in different categories. It should be easy to add an option like "Use canonical of parent", then anyone can do it as he wants to.
Thank you for your explanation. I know that the only difference between the stockable and generic child is the way it is shown but that is just the thing I liked about the stockable, but don't forget you just ditched a whole functionality no matter if the used the same structure underneath. It's true that the stockable did not match all functionality but it was doable for me, I only needed stock control for different sizes, and just show a selection box with XS, S, M, L or 7, 8, 9, 10, nothing else. I do not need the whole name in the selection box with the size behind it, it's information I don't need to show to the customer, they have selected the product and only need to choose which size they want.
I also don't like the previous and next button when you use generic child, it's strange to see another size of the same product and not another parent product if you hit previous or next.
For now I have to re-think my future with VM, which is a pitty because I like a lot if it. I will wait for the moment VM3 is launched and see if I can work with it.
Okey, I didnt want to talk about it, but you force me.
Quote from: GuidoS on August 16, 2014, 15:03:05 PM
Maybe we could find a way we both could live with.
There is a wrong view in your attitude. I have not to live with it. My customers have to live with it. It is not a matter between you and me. This is a discussion how to enhance the features of VM.
Quote from: GuidoS on August 17, 2014, 14:18:24 PM
For now I have to re-think my future with VM, which is a pitty because I like a lot if it. I will wait for the moment VM3 is launched and see if I can work with it.
and next rant comes. Man, no one forces you to update to vm3. Also you can clearly see that I am very interested to understand. Look I am like a guy designing a car and I ask people what they have for wishes and someone tells me that the old beetle was a lot better, cause the new car has no ashtray. Or because the new car has the luggage in the back.
I just ask about the advantages of the stockable plugin, to integrate them in VM3. The problem is, I just had so much fun with it talking about (you can see I typed most words in that thread already). But the answer is so what of depressing.
Quote from: GuidoS on August 17, 2014, 14:18:24 PM
... but that is just the thing I liked about the stockable, but don't forget you just ditched a whole functionality no matter if the used the same structure underneath.
There is exactly the misunderstanding. I never said that. I said the generic child variant is the replacement. Ergo if the generic child variant is not suitable to be the replacement? what means it? => enhance the generic child variant. I really wonder why some people always hear only the negative things or if they are in doubt assume always the worst. If I would think the way you think about me, we wouldnt not talk, I wouldnt be in this forum.
Quote from: GuidoS on August 17, 2014, 14:18:24 PM
It's true that the stockable did not match all functionality but it was doable for me, I only needed stock control for different sizes, and just show a selection box with XS, S, M, L or 7, 8, 9, 10, nothing else.
Here is the answer without stockable: http://demo.virtuemart.net/virtuemart-views/categories-view/child-variant-w-cart-variant-2-detail btw VM2!
Quote from: GuidoS on August 17, 2014, 14:18:24 PM
I do not need the whole name in the selection box with the size behind it, it's information I don't need to show to the customer, they have selected the product and only need to choose which size they want.
I also don't like the previous and next button when you use generic child, it's strange to see another size of the same product and not another parent product if you hit previous or next.
[Ironie]Yeh this is god given and cannot be changed. We are not Programmers and dont know how to adjust things. This thread here is just for your concerns.[/Ironie]
Quote from: GuidoS on August 17, 2014, 14:18:24 PM
Thank you for your explanation.
Please read my explanation again! I doubt you got my main intention behind the lines, else I could have written only this:
"Thanks for pointing out the problem with previous and next, should be quite easy to handle it, as I wrote already before, there will be a method to define your own dropdown."
Poeh, don't make it to personal:)
First of all, I am only trying to give you my opinion about how I use it and how I see it in other shops, not only shops that are made with virtuemart but also shops that are custom made.
Then about my remark, you really are taking it the wrong way. You (and maybe other) have other thoughts about the functionality and I was only pointing out that we could look to other solutions in which we both could live with. I am only pointing out that there are more thoughts about things but at the end you and the other developers are the ones who decide.
And about the future, I have to look in to that, after a while Joomla 2.5 will end and than I have to switch, it's better to look now so I have some time to investigate. I also have to think about my customers wishes so don't take it to hard;)
I think the misunderstanding about the generic child variant is because of the link you send me when I asked why there wasn't a stockable plugin anymore and for me that functionality was different than the way I use it now. I was just pointing out that there is a real difference between those two that could make the difference for some one.
Without stock is not an option:) We are working with real live stock on different places wich are updated several times a day. That's also why I would like to have more stock control options for a child product:)
Not going to react on you ironie, I was just pointing out how I use it.
But let's get back to this topic again, I shall read your comments better and shall try to read it in a positive way;)
Hello everyone!
I read all this topic and I decided to try the VM 2.9.9...
For me the stockable variant that exists at VM 2.xx is very useful. I am running a lingerie shop and the only thing that I want is the customer to select the size (medium, large etc...)
Let's go to the point now...
As I said yesterday I tried the generic child variant ... I realized that is not the same with the stockable variant... is it better? I don't know, probably it is, because it has other features and new features.
But! Milbo, I want to suggest a few things, that in my opinion generic child variant will be perfect.
1) As you said : " It should be easy to add an option like "Use canonical of parent", then anyone can do it as he wants to. "
If you do that would be perfect!
2) Please give us an option to name this field with everything that we want to name it. (See photo translate-choose-variant.JPG to understand)
Probably you will not understand why I am asking this , but it is a translation issue for me... I can't translate this into Greek properly. As you can see in photo I already have the name Choose Size . If you give me the option to name this with everything I want I will name the "Choose a variant" to "Choose size" or anything else that I want.
Please consider to make these changes.
Thank you in advance!
Regards,
Pagona
PS1: If you need more info please ask :)
[attachment cleanup by admin]
Sounds good GuidoS. Just a reminder, our Support Membership is also meant for joomla security issues. The maintaince cycles of Joomla are too fast for us.
I consider all your concerns Guido and just writing a hopefully killer solution, a perfect merge of both solutions.
Escapezone, you can override the Choose a variant by the language file (languag override).
and I atm adding a method so that everyone can use its own labels for the dropdown. Only thing atm bothering me is the search by attributes. This is the advantage of the cartvariants, they are nice for filters.
Quote from: Milbo on August 18, 2014, 19:56:42 PM
I consider all your concerns Guido and just writing a hopefully killer solution, a perfect merge of both solutions.
Is it the "cart variant" in VM2.9.9b:)
Yepp, it is the idea. Actually the last thing missing for the vm3 release.