[Solved] Poll (yes/no) Backend Product Final Price w/(vat/tax)

[simbus82]

I think this discussion is worth of having because it helps all of us understanding better the user needs and the ideology behind VM2.

Please remind that there are quite many different types of sellers and shop types which are defined by:

• Market area  [Domestic / International]
  
• Product type  [Physical / Electronic / Service]
  
• Parts one product consists of  [One / Tens / Hundreds]
  
• The number of Customers  [Tens / Hundreds / Thousands]
  
• Product amounts [Tens / Hundreds / Thousands]
  
• Store type [Physical / Internet]
  
• etc.
  

And combos of all of these.

Simbus,
I saw somewhere in Youtube a video of a VM1 office plugin etc. that helped in entering/controlling huge amounts of products. I think investments in that kind of tool for 1000 product sellers is acceptable.

Maxispin mine is only an example: i could be difficult with only 100 product to recalculate from price gross the price net.

The problem is that the VM developers think like a developer and not think like an end user, not like a vendor, but lika the man that have to use the PC to insert image files and write price inside forms.


Tipical situation HERE:
My client has a supermarket and wants to open an ecommerce: Call an poorly paid intern with a tablet and he go through the shelves to take pictures and put the product with its price GROSS (readed from shelves!!!) inside VM.

Do you realize that the VM developers do not understand that anyone who puts the product is probably not the one who has to hand the net prices without taxes?

You really believe that a vendor makes the calculations of the gain to sell on the internet when he has already a shop?


99% of those who open an ecommerce, he does this because it already has a physical store, already has its products with the gross price, has supplier that sell him products and he pays bills include taxes.


That is, truly, but are you living on the moon?!?!

I live in EUROPE, in ITALY, and here there are 3 different rates ... 4%, 10% and 21% depending on the type of goods sold: supplied basic (bread, pasta), various food products (beverages, condiments), and everything else from food to electronic goods.

A vendor has prices GROSS ,no one would ever bother to calculate prices without taxes: then in Italy, it is not a tax, but an Aliquot on the added value. Aliquot which is paid by the private final buyer.

So NO ONE IN ITALY insert net prices in a ecommerce which aims to sell to private individuals.

If you can not figure out this little thing ok, I'll try to find those who can make this change for the Italian people that want to use this wonderful tool for ecommerce.

[Milbo]

lol sorry simbus, but you really seem not to understand.

For your case you create 3 unpublished categories, corresponding rules to it. Then you add the corresponding category to your products, you add the costprice done. You did not read correctly. Virtuemart is using your cost price. The price you use to buy your goods.

What you call Aliquot is imho what we call Vat = "value add tax", which has to be paid by all private customers yes. When you buy in italy using gross, but without  Aliquot, then afaik the rest in europe calls it netto. Taxes and costs of the merchant which cannot be used by you are Either you buy without vat or you get the vat back, a normal merchant does not buy with VAT. Of course, when you do illegal stuff,...

When you do not bother to calculate the price without tax, then it is just not your tax. For example, the big area merchant is paying import taxes, special duties (used by the state to influence the market). Do you have to show this taxes on the invoice? Afaik not, you just show your final price, which is the costprice (what you buy in gross) + profit and the vat (which is maybe your aliquot). You need only to show the aliquot to your customers. Maybe you do not, then you dont need tax rules. In germany we must always show both values, except the invoice has a low amount.

[simbus82]

lol sorry simbus, but you really seem not to understand.

For your case you create 3 unpublished categories, corresponding rules to it. Then you add the corresponding category to your products, you add the costprice done. You did not read correctly. Virtuemart is using your cost price. The price you use to buy your goods.

What you call Aliquot is imho what we call Vat = "value add tax", which has to be paid by all private customers yes. When you buy in italy using gross, but without  Aliquot, then afaik the rest in europe calls it netto. Taxes and costs of the merchant which cannot be used by you are Either you buy without vat or you get the vat back, a normal merchant does not buy with VAT. Of course, when you do illegal stuff,...

Boh.. I think I have understood.
I only know that whoever puts the products in ecommerce is a person who has in hand ONLY gross prices inclusive of VAT and that VAT type of the product.

When you do not bother to calculate the price without tax, then it is just not your tax. For example, the big area merchant is paying import taxes, special duties (used by the state to influence the market). Do you have to show this taxes on the invoice? Afaik not, you just show your final price, which is the costprice (what you buy in gross) + profit and the vat (which is maybe your aliquot). You need only to show the aliquot to your customers. Maybe you do not, then you dont need tax rules. In germany we must always show both values, except the invoice has a low amount.

I think i need to show the type of VAT for every products (if i have a product at 4% and not at 21% i have to show it), not only in invoice but in ticket/receipt/check (in italian "scontrino fiscale"), but it is not required to show the price netto.


So you're saying that in theory I could not use the tax rules and enter only the FINAL price in VM?

And if someone buys something and then he asks the invoice as a company?

The real example of which I speak is this grocery store that wants an ecommerce to sell online (with shipping) or with the preparation of the shopping bag for those who have little time to spend in the store to choose the food.

But some purchases can come from those who ask for the invoice (perhaps the buyer is a restaurant instead of an ordinary citizen).

[Milbo]

:-)

You guys dont need to persuade me todo this. It is planned already longer, when I started with the calculator. What I just want to say is that it should not be a blocker and not a real problem.

At least your writings a are setting the priority higher. The reason we use the forum and not a ticket system. I got a new idea, how to solve the problem a lot faster then I thought before.

Maybe I manage it even today to write an extra. My idea before was to calculate with the costprice and the final price the effecting profit. Problem is just that people would like to see their profit, when they enter their costprice and final price. Or they enter the final price, the desired profit and can see then their maximum costprice.

[maxispin]

Sounds awesome!

[Piccoro]

So... Any news on this yet?... 

[horus_68]

Lipes
In your picture you are adding profit over VAT price? 243.90 Price + 23% VAT + 5 % Profit
How come?
In my country any receipt of purchase is: Price + VAT = Cost of the product to buyer
(Here PRICE already include manufacture cost, shipping, profit)

So if you sell something for 315€  the VAT paid can be calculated (eg. to fiscal refund if you are an international truck company) from the 315 not from the 300!

[horus_68]

Thoughts on the discussion

- No seller should post directly the end price. Even if you are a reseller and are just copying a print catalog to virtuemart, you know you should use a spreadsheet to split the end price in his components. Like it or not. Selling its a business!

- If you want to have a "cute" price as in 9.99 then you need to adjust your profit margin.
The manufacturer cost, the VAT and additional taxes (except any promotional shipping) are not the part to edit!


So maybe you should focus on making/asking virtuemart easier to adjust the profit margin!
Maybe a system to round up your prices as in:

if end price 9.97 round up to 9.99 // if 10.0 round down to 9.99
(on both 9.99 products you get same VAT euros to delivery to the fiscal authority but your profit margin its different!)

Again, you can have a spreadsheet for that! Thats what the real seller do in real life.
So sometimes you loose, sometimes you get more! (remember you can't sell below product cost unless in SALES period!!)

[simbus82]

Again, you can have a spreadsheet for that! Thats what the real seller do in real life.
So sometimes you loose, sometimes you get more! (remember you can't sell below product cost unless in SALES period!!)

No, you don't have idea what SELLER really do in real life. No one follow rules.

Many vendors already have their real shop with their gross prices.

No one cares to use virtuemart as a marketing platform: VM is used to SELL. And if a seller has a real shop to the public, inside VM wants to put the final prices. NO ONE of these sellers with a real shop is interested in VM to indicate the margins on the price or other things, apart from the VAT.

[horus_68]

Sorry but you are totally confused... even if you do this is real life you are totally wrong!!!

So if you add the % of the Profit after VAT as in = (243.90 € + 23% VAT) + 5 % Profit  = 315€
Can you please tell me how many VAT for that product you register in
A) the invoice to the client (that needs to display Price + VAT = Total
B) How many euros do you register to give back to your local fiscal authority?

Or you don't give any?
You can't add profit after VAT. You can't make profit from VAT, only form the product cost!
Cost + VAT + Profit = Price? No, No, No!!
And please go and talk with an accountant!

[simbus82]

Sorry but you are totally confused... even if you do this is real life you are totally wrong!!!

My clients are owners of companies that have active business for many years.

You CAN NOT say what is right and wrong in real life if these people are doing that job for decades.

It is they who made ​​me notice this problem (the inability to put the price and VAT FINAL without having to enter the price BASE).

People in a real store that SELLS from years, people who already have their own list of final prices determined a long time ago....

These are the customers of the VM that we have in our web agency: we DO NOT WORK with ordinary people who jumps on the Internet with dreams of making money by selling items bought from some kind of suppliers (where is needed to calculate the earning too! i agree!), we work only with COMPANIES.

Do you really want you to teach THEM how to SELL??

And Lipes is right about the calculation. And you think in my case, that here in Italy there are 3 different vat to be used and whether buyers want an invoice, the vat must be exposed for everyone Product TOGETHER THE FINAL PRICE!!



The change is conceptually simple: make the final price of the box editable.

Instead of doing

Final Price = [base price x (1,vat)]

just do

base price = [final price / (1,vat)]

and to get the result in the base price.  (if vat = 20% .... 1,vat ... is .... 1,20)

Of course you should add a "check" on the box is filled in, to see if you compile the final price or the basic one. Even a tick is good!


And this is solved EVERY problem.

PS: Then one radiobutton in configuration and each one shows what he wants in the product price column.

[horus_68]

Lets get real:
My father is an accountant. I know how this is done!
My country has 3 VAT rates. I know this too!
And I also know that those are not eternal rates as governments do change it when they want, and move products form one to other category. Mine did it last year too!
So if something its lost in translation lets get this in plain talk!

So if someone can resume whats in stake here would be better than adding issues that are plain wrong and messing one simple request ant first.
Maybe people should understand that when they are asking to turn copper in gold they just need to stay on that request, they don't need to add new issues over that.
So I will post a new reply that will be plain and simple and get the discussion back again on the request done!

[horus_68]

The initial request was:
New way to display price to users:
- WITH our VAT/TAX! Final Price (price gross)
- WITHOUT our VAT or TAX  Base Price  (price net)
- BOTH (with and without option)

No extra arguments scenarios needed!
Plain and simple: I'm for with, without or both as available options.
I'm for both 3 options available but with a "choose one by default only" option.
As I don't want my store to have different/mixed price systems on shelves!

Those how for any reason want the price visible with VAT, without or both should be able to choose. End stores should use with, middleman resellers would use with and without (without in big), Producers would prefer without", whatever! Fine!
I don't care what you find "most important" on "a" store. I'm not here to win any argumentation on you!
So focus on that and see if it can be done by actual developers or just share a way to do that on the code so it can be used! Maybe other users can help building that solution!


On other requests done along this post:
- You can't ask a store software to include one feature that its against every regular business practice, even if you don't realize this is done that way! (as in profit over VAT)
- You shouldn't ask for features that would turn impossible to multi-edit prices directly in tables or with external tools. This would be the case if you don't have a  common rule for prices on the same group.

Special note:
- You asked one thing then requested another. That's usually the direct way to not see any of them implemented, only endless discussions!
- If you want a "direct cute price" its another request different from this post!
Ask for it in another post, find a "cute" name as in "Low end store", "Direct price mode", "One field price", "No calculations mode" or any other you like.
And that could then be considered an interesting feature for virtuemart, something easy to market and a reason to someone invest some hours coding.

So before you request a feature, ask yourself why someone would implement it! Show how useful it would be for others, market your idea!
Don't just shout in panic mode: "I need this now, give it to me!".
Maybe its not accepted at first but you could succeed later. You simple need to accept that others have different priority than yours and try to find alternative ways or make your proposal an interesting one.
That's business 101 !!

So now lets get back on topic and to initial request.
Split requests (even if they look related or are for the same store) and try to find votes for your cause or submit a patch to implement it !
Please understand this and you will find more success on life!

[osp]

It was discussed in various systems too many time so I'm not sure if the discussion makes a sense even.
But...

There're always two POVS:
- system
- sales man

System needs one fixed price, at least it's common practice. It doesn't matter if it's final or base. But must be one. Or each product have to have it's own info "my fixed price is base or final" (what currently VM2 AFAIK does not have) and 10 yrs of practice says this leads to comon problems in all calculations.

Sales man should have a unique price methodology, so fixed price is without VAT or with VAT.
Bu there're some situations sales man needs to say "this product has final price 100 EUR, no matter what other costs are". Well that is common, I need to agree, especially on web. Marketing action, special promos...

So, what is the matter of the problem? All constraints atre on the table and there is simple implication leading to solution, so where is the bouried dog?

I think the easiest way to solve the problems is to handle BE so it easies calculation of base price from final price enetered.
Another common problem then is rounding and big quantities in printed documents (some countired needs calculated price of 1pc on printed documents and then document must match. Then if you have 1pc eg for 0.14159 EUR and you buy 1000pcs, then printed document rounded to 2 decimal places will not match - 1pc=0.14, final price=141.59  Strict auditor will kick you in the ... I saw it three times ).
Then you're again in troubles. But this is let's say marginal problem and can be solved in print by adding rounding row....

So I vote for final price, but in matter that we will add only calculation helper in BE, so everybody can enter final price and base price will be calculated depending on TAX rules and stored.

[Milbo]

lol Guys, the problem is solved and in svn

But to you lipes:
That you have the same result does NOT make your calculation correct!

the profit margin is added BEFORE VAT, that is part of the definition of VAT. Also that the VAT is only paid by the endconsumer ist also part of the definition (ala aliquote, lol).

and thank you horus and ondra for your replies. I agree