downloadable products

[orasis]

Again, my fear is if I bite the bullet and move forward with VM 2, them what will they strip out on the next "upgrade"?   

Remember Coca-Cola? or New Coke? then Both? Then the dumping of New Coke?
A little off base but you can't live life with this kind of fear. I know what you mean about "buggy" too not to mention the possibility of opening the door for hackers. Adjust and move on. Better yet drop your website development, go learn php, html, css, javascript, mysql... and make your own solution. Once you see it from their side you will probably need so sell your solution to make up for loss of income from your own website.

Free enterprise is wonderful. It gives the core developers the opportunity to define and re-define what core is for their business model.

Look at it this way, ever have a hamburger? Add cheese for .50 cents. No cheese but cut the onions, same price as the core (hamburger), which I feel is wrong because I don't want onions so I should pay less than what the core price is. However, the maker of the core (hamburger) has set the price of the core to include tomatoes, lettuce, onions, and pickles. If I don't want to pay for cheese there is a solution... I bring my own. The down side is I still had to pay for the cheese just at a reduced cost by removing their "labor charge" for slapping on a piece of cheese. If I had the time and money I would make a hamburger joint that charged for each individual ingredient of the burger.

My point is at least the price of the core (VM) is not changed but the definition of it is redefined. I'm not happy about it but as I see it I have two choices. Don't use cheese or bring my own. I scrape the onions off and give them to my wife cause she loves 'em, after all I'm payin' for 'em anyway.

You seam locked and you now forget very simple things.
You used "hamburger" in your example, I will use a Greek saying, with Oranges.. you know oranges ? ok here you go:

Greek Original:
Υπάρχουν κι αλλού πορτοκαλιές που κάνουν πορτοκάλια.

English Translation:
There are also other orange trees, making oranges too.

[lime21]

OK so I think here are enough opinions to taking out the downloadables from the VM core.

I hope the developers are still reading here again. Because I like to know if it is possible to do the following with the new component:

My software I like to sell can be downloaded as a demoversion. After paying with various payment systems I like to send my customer a serial-number on mail so that he get the complete-version.
The serial-number is individual and I don´t like to put it on my webserver.

So is this possible to handle? After paying, sending the serial-number??

I will be happy for an answer.

Regards.

[daviator]

(snipped)
My point is at least the price of the core (VM) is not changed but the definition of it is redefined. I'm not happy about it but as I see it I have two choices. Don't use cheese or bring my own. I scrape the onions off and give them to my wife cause she loves 'em, after all I'm payin' for 'em anyway.

Hi teksum,
First of al,l please do not take my comments as trying to argue with you as this is not my intent.

The last version I tried of VM was 1.9 and it had the downloadable (and salable) products as part of its core. I get it. You have to pay extra for the "goodies". Fair enough. But to use your analogy what if your "core" cheeseburger always came with the bun, burger and onions? So the next time you order one it doesn't come with the onions and now you are told that the "new version" no longer comes with the onions.

It's the now missing "onions" is what annoys me. I'm not asking for anything that wasn't included in the previous version. I chose the "core" VM as my platform of choice because the version I originally tested had the features I initially needed in it's core. I was and am willing to pay for the items not included.

And yes I know the core is free and many spent a lot of time and effort in to creating it and I am very grateful for that.  I too have provided much of my time, knowledge resources and even source code over the web to the flight simulator community so I really do get it.  It's just the way this was done is what gives the open source community a negative image.

It would have been less annoying had VM simply just gone 100% commercial. 

[orasis]

Be glad that this topic is still alive and not locked or even deleted, because the new fascist mentality caused 2, same replies of mine to be deleted and locked on this: http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=99572.0#quickreply
the topic has huge relation to this one here. my answer was the following (also check attachment):

Hello
In http://virtuemart.net/news/list-all-news/414-virtuemart-202-is-out
New feature list mentions: Media handles downloadables files (free download) and also files for sales

I agree. The last part saying: ".. and also files for sales" is NOT a new feature of VM2 once it does not exist in the VM2 core. See: http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=98277.0


the answer after deletion the 2nd time was:
nordmograph is one of our 3rd party developers asking for support - not for your opinion.

This is fascism. No freedom of speech. This is the only forum in my internet life since 1996 that this has happened.


[attachment cleanup by admin]

[Milbo]

The last version I tried of VM was 1.9 and it had the downloadable (and salable) products as part of its core.

This is not true, it was never in the core of vm1.5 or higher.

VM2 has now a lot more features than vm1. You just dont see them, work a bit with it. I think a function which is sending emails to every shopper of a certain product is a lot more important for ALL, then to sell files. We will certainly add this function for example.

and it is also not true, that people do not answer in the forum. I cant see this. Sometimes the people ask questions which are in the first 3 hits of google with their own topic terms. Or the people just dont know.

I do vm as fulltime job since more than a year now. It is impossible to live from the donations and advertisment. VM lives from the community and the 3rd party developers. The better the core for 3rd party developers, the more high quality extensions you will get. The more stuff you have already in the core, the slower it gets and harder to customize.

and btw, why vm died almost? Because and that is no joke, approximatly 200k people live directly from vm,.. they have a vm shop, they create shops, or they sell for it... or they are providers. But look here https://www.ohloh.net/p/virtuemart how many committs where in the year 2009? Did they people who made their money with it contribute or pay? No, they did not. So there was no steady development and this was very bad for 3rd party developers.

When you want to live from your store, in europe and lets say you want to earn 1000 euro a month, you do not understand that you pay for the base of your business for one time 30 €? that is just greedy.

[teksun]

It's just the way this was done is what gives the open source community a negative image.

It would have been less annoying had VM simply just gone 100% commercial.

I'm really not trying to pick a fight, I'm just saying your definition of "open source" is flawed.
http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd

[lime21]

So what´s with my questions at post #31 ??
Can I please get an answer? 

[Fernando Soares]

All Milbo said is true but the basic problems I see:

• Some features and structures was leave AS IS by compatibility, correct;  This feature, files for sale(digital goods), not ... and this breaks the compatibility;
• No one simple option for this was offered to VM users, like was made for shipping and payment options; If I can add files as "for sale" why not handle them, with a very basic plugin system? So developers can do more elaborated plugins to extend these feature;
• The documentation for plugin development is not complete, without examples and some functions listed in wiki not exists or changed the name. I lived this during development of two plugins for brazilians.

Not a problem at all for developers that "lives the VirtueMart" but for store owners that administrate your own shops this is a BIG problem.

Imagine if the VM team had done the same with normal shipping and popular payment plugins... So, consider a simple plugin for digital goods.

This was not a feature that all users use but is a diferential feature. This is only my opinion.

Thanks

[plive]

Here take a look on this one http://virtuemart.cloudaccess.net/extensions-virtuemart-2/shipment-for-virtual-products-detail  written by the coreteam. It is not with all feature we all wish, but it does what it says.

Hi,
I'm new here, I am also disappointed  that the downloadable products is not implemented in VM2.
I recommend joomla for several years, I expected the VM2 for my client who wants to sell downloadable documents.
I understand your position, and am willing to pay a plugin.
So, can you confirm that it work well?

[jpnyc]

I am to indeed very disappointed.
$46 for a function that was out of the box in the precedent version  ( and I'm sorry sir, selling downloadable  goods is far for being a minority of us!  )
I feel betrayed, shitted on and that basically a racket.
I'm not cheap, I made donations more than once before, it's what I love about  the open-source / GNU / sharing knowledge and all that jazz... I  can give $ to the great projects I like and use.
Nothing is guaranteeing us that updates will be free in the future, I saw that happening more than one in the past why this one would be exception ? "ho but this is a major update, we have to charge for this one..." you never saw that before ..?
Really sad to see this great project going that way.
JP

[jux]

Im not agree with you guys , there are a lot of VM users that need this essential features, I m written a lot of ebook (.pdf) and I was used to sell them in VM1.
We have a community of 35 members that are doing the same.
We are all using VM 1 for that.

So the question is : are you going to publish an official release of this plugin?

I m quite disapointed to see free feature that used to make the strenght of VM1 have been deleted in the VM2 released

You should warn us about this

Thank you

[jux]

But  Milbo have reason everyone using Virtuemart should contribute in a way, so why not agree and everyone could contribute and give 5 euros?

If 400 k people are using it that would be enough to keep this community alive
because personally I love too much VM and do not want this shop to desappear!

[ryubi]

Sorry to bump this thread, I was just shocked today when a friend tell me today that virtuemart is no longer let you to sell digital goods on default installation.
Well I'm not a daily user of Virtuemart and I don't use virtuemart that often but I'm a long time virtuemart fan.
I knew virtuemart since along time ago and until yesterday if someone ask me suggestion for free ecommerce solution for Joomla I will always recommend Virtuemart, as I believe virtuemart is one of a mature joomla component where you can use it to sell ALL kind of things for free. But starting today I think I will ask them first "what kind of goods you want to sell"?

When you said that it's not a feature that majority virtuemart users need, why don't you just consider it as a "standard" feature for ecommerce solution, as OpenCart, PrestaShop developers did? Is that really that hard to implement such feature?
If the reason is you need a business model for virtuemart, why do think to remove this feature is really a good move for Virtuemart? IMO there are still alot of space for you to play rather than to withdraw this feature.

But I know you guys have spent alot of time and resource to work with virtuemart, and also you guys have a lot of bills need to pay so you deserve this all. It is your your right to decide the virtuemart roadmap.

Please take my reply for just an expression of my dissappointment, nothing more. Thanks

[Pitpan]

Unfortunately, things are not that good for websites with downloadable payable products with VM2.

[liam09]

I come in peace lol -
very interesting thread, and also in context of my big complaints with the shipping features being completely left out (compared via VM 1) to be fulfilled by 3rd party developers. I think this is a very simple solution: set expectations, and then meet them. I am currently at the tail end of a project (a 2.0) of a site that was running joomla 1.5 vm 1.xx and i (stupidly) figured that VM 2 would be bigger and better than before!!!! (echo echo echo).. and then i was shoved into the cold water and made to realize that since i was already neck deep in this project, and at the point of configuring shipping options, i have no choice but to be raped or gouged until it was over. Which has been my life for the last six months.

For example, i thought to myself... hmmm... where did the shipping go (this after investing a lot of time and resources in getting VM2 core up to speed with our site)... A little bit of research later i found that it is all now all held in the hands of 3rd party developers (eh hem.. mostly istraxx == virtuemart team) and that i would have to pay close to $200 for just emulating the previous shipping setup i had in VM 1.xx. That was a huge disappointment. Not to mention i am on this thread because we also sell downloadable products that i also have to dish more and more money out for. I have always supported the VM and Joomla efforts, and do not expect anyone to work for free. A man is worth his wages. But i do have a problem with underhandedness - there should be blatant warnings for VM2 developers to understand the new model. That to a developer, we should be able to understand that this project is no longer really open source, but half open source and half commercial. Which in context of the other Joomla options, i would have gone with a commercial product rather than dealing with this nightmare that is VM 2 (e.g. the core is great! but requires a /lot/ of work, studying, understanding and time to "upgrade" - which is a completely wrong word - from the previous version).

With commercial options i would get full, great support with all the functionality i needed already built in for one price. Which is actually lower (in some cases, much lower) than what i have in the end, paid for VM2. I wouldn't have to chase down a million different 3rd parties, read peer reviews, study some more, and then hope my educated decision pays off, only to realize i need to fix code myself (which i shouldn't have to for paid solutions) to make things work correctly due to bad support. I am a very experienced developer in many different languages, and can't even imagine the mountain of fear this thing would pose to a person/company with limited talent. In short, i understand everything the developers are saying, as well as the community. Rarely is one side 100% right and the other 100% wrong. The devil in this case, is hiding under the fact that the appearance of things, is greed driven. Though i hardly think that is the reality, but that is what it looks like.

I also feel for Max M.. I read through his code constantly and view him as a very intelligent and talented developer. It's sad that it has kind of come to this, as i believe the real problem exists in the fact that VM2 is really just straddling the fence of open source and commercial software. I love the idea of making the core more suited for 3rd party plugins, and that the previous version almost made it harder to expand functionality than VM2 did, but it at least lived up to the name. I think what is happening is that developers like me, that love(d) virtuemart, pushed upgrades for future projects, only to find out that i had to breach several new and uncomfortable discussions with the client to let them know they need to add another $300+ to the budget to simply get the cart back to it's original state (all while trying to convince them that the upgrade was a good business decision) and that me and my team are not complete morons because we (ignorantly) assumed VM2 would at the very least be equivalent to VM1. It has nothing to do with the money.. it has everything to do with the approach. To the client, they could care less about the code base. They do care about the fact this project has gone well over it's mark and and budget. It's not just buying and adding a 3rd party plugin.. it's my time (which is expensive) to configure, integrate, modify, regression test against everything and repeat for the duration of the project.

Go open source (at least provide stripped down basic options across the board allowing the person to upgrade if needed) or go commercial and straight up set the expectation that the person is going to pay $200 for a fully functional bad ass shopping cart that includes all plugins and support the person will most likely ever encounter. All the while, the developers can make a living, and everyone can operate off of very clear expectations.

Broken or unmanaged expectations always lead to disastrous endings. Especially to the VM audience.. contractors. Mostly small fish trying to grow in a world full of sharks. Badly communicated/handled expectations will guarantee a project will go down in flames. I have yet to be a part of one that hasn't.