VM modifications - Joined forces?

[crackdaddy]

this is a gay idea!!!!
-it defeats the concept of opensource
-also its only a 100 dollar project for example why would you give the developer all 300(from your example) that is a waste, you can funded 2 more 100 dollar projects.
-more than likely if you have a real world mod you nee others will need it too, so posting it here and having someone here help you allows everyone to benifit
-i can go on and on..but a bad idea in gereral....
more than likely what you want is in the works or on the to do list...if you need it asap, at least pay the people here to do (we all are doing this for free but some may be able to help out faster if they can get paid....) and then the open source goodies will trickle to everyone... you only pay to the asap of the project basically... not only that once we do the mod correctly and release it your mod will have been a waste of money and possibly useless since it will not become part of the core vm
-good luck...bad idea..no help from me...

[EyeScream]

Well... Another well formulated reply from crackdaddy...

Here´s at least my opinions.
"-it defeats the concept of opensource".
Why? A good module, mambot, module or plain hack finds its way into the core no matter if it has been developed with or without funding? I thought I clearly stated in my initial post that I´m all up for releasing custom mods that I´ve been co-funding for public use once it´s ready? What would be the difference between a funded mod and a non-funded? More open-sourcish code?

"-also its only a 100 dollar project for example why would you give the developer all 300(from your example) that is a waste, you can funded 2 more 100 dollar projects."
I wanted the users on this forum to give their opinion about this idea. I never mentioned that "this is my idea, take it or leave it"... I don´t know about the other users using VM but I make money with this software, plain and simple. When i request something, it´s because I´m in need of a solution as soon as possible. Yes, more $100 projects could be funded but I´d rather see the overflow money being donated back into the Virtuemart project.

"-more than likely if you have a real world mod you nee others will need it too, so posting it here and having someone here help you allows everyone to benifit"
Thats the point... Speeding up development. How many commercially developed VM hacks requested on joomlancers have been released to the public after completion?

"-i can go on and on..but a bad idea in gereral....
more than likely what you want is in the works or on the to do list...if you need it asap, at least pay the people here to do (we all are doing this for free but some may be able to help out faster if they can get paid....) and then the open source goodies will trickle to everyone... you only pay to the asap of the project basically... not only that once we do the mod correctly and release it your mod will have been a waste of money and possibly useless since it will not become part of the core vm"
Well, I wouldn´t have started this thread if this was the case, would I? As I mentioned earlier, I run a business with this application. I could easily switch platform to CS-Cart, X-cart, Pinnacle, etc but I happen to like VirtueMart despite that there are features that should have been introduced a long time ago, for example gift certificates. If 3 users pay a developer $50 each and the mod get´s done in 4 days and later released to the public... I don´t see the problem?

"-good luck...bad idea..no help from me..."
Well, seriously... You have some skills but you have a really annoying attitude. From what I´ve seen, there are plenty of other users that gets the job done and with a far more professional approach than yours.


/..EyeScream

[crackdaddy]

well if you gonna try to prove your correct in your statment let me add a quote by you which goes agains what you just said
"8, One week later, the mod is done and emailed to the users involved and everybody wins!"
&
"10, The mod maker receives additional payments and sends the mod to the concerned users and then decides to upgrade the mod with some new features since the he has received over $300 so far. He then sends the updated version to all registered users."

------
your statements do not imply giving anything back ALL the vm users,
only those who paid... nor only paing the desired amount to the coder....

get your facts straight and go waste your money... i dont care...people are allowed to be stupid

[EyeScream]

I also said "Personally, I don´t mind if that modification later get´s included for free in later versions of VM".

and later on:

"My intention was to raise some thoughts about this joint-effort-pay-some-guy-a-reasonable-amount-of-cash-each-and-everybody-gets-happy-project and see where it ended."

At the time of writing I was not clear about what I wanted at all, and my intention was that the scenario I described should be considered as an example and not as a evil "crush all open source projects" suggestion.

Although, you obviously didn´t understand this, Joseph Kwan actually did. For $50, Joseph took on a request from "John - Australia" and also released it to the public: http://virtuemart.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=71&topic=29679.0

Of course you could have done Josephs work a lot better and faster and also completely for free!


You also say that you don´t care... OK? And you´re writing here because...?
Maybe because this idea is, as you so elegentally put it, a "gay idea".
Do you perhaps like gay ideas and therefor your sudden engagement?

"Stupid is as stupid does".

/..EyeScream

[Stacey Schaller]

I have a Gift Registry Module. I'm not sure how to do this because it was passed to me with the deal that, if I get it working, I simply make it available as a free open-source Mod. However, I have spent nearly a week on it and do not seem to have it close to working.

I would go for the Split-the-Tab arrangement to continue working on it, or we could spread the work out among several of us and get the thing working.

I am including a zip of the Mod as it stands (not working) for anyone who would like to take a stab at it. I have cleaned up the code somewhat and removed the most egregious issues with it, but it still throws out multiple errors and fails to connect numerous strings. 

I could continue working on it for about $150 of combined dollars, or share the load in fixing it.

Any thoughts?

Stacey

[attachment cleanup by admin]

[ron]

i think the idea of joining funds to get a new idea through fast is great! however, i do think everyone should be able to benefit from it soon thereafter as well. maybe in a followup release or so. on the other hand more testers the better as well. since the mods are fairly cheap it probably doesnt matter much as long as a few people contribute toward the cost to get it done.

i was needing a catalog on one side of the screen with a shopping cart on teh other side of the screen such that when an item is slected it is added toteh cart immediately and can be clearly seen as such. i mostly just need long length text items to be clickable for inclusion into the shopping cart.i dont want it to change screens and ask for more info. everything would be modifyable on the catalog, probably using the great atrribute hack on this site.

anybody know if this already exists and how to set it up that way. im new to vm so learning. or can anybody offer a good way to do it and come up with a price?

i do think that many people would find a shopping cart like this useful. it makes it easier for a customer to see what they can buy and have selected to buy without so much screen swapping.

thanks for any input!

[maia]

Just and idea: Why not making this mods freely available to the public after some time ?

maia

[Joachim A]

Hi,

I have had thoughts about this issue also.
Most of VM users have benefited from it one way or another. Because of its very nature as a shopping cart component funds are more  available to finance development.

It seems to me that the needs for features is there. There is also the willingness to contribute by many and finance development for a specific feature . What I think we are missing here is a system in place that allows contributions to specific projects according to users real need.

A solution was devised and exists. We implemented it in CSVimproved.com using Virtuemart as a donation component. With some minor changes this can be done: change  language file to adapt it to a donation lingo and  Use the stock component to measure as donation goal (once stock is exhausted the donation goal has been met). Each project becomes a product and can be donated to.  The most popular module becomes  the Donation Ladder and project priority list: the more donations the higher the  projects priority.

Once a Donation Goal is reached the project can be developed or outsourced by the community, developed and then made available.

This system encourages donations  to specific needs and I believe this makes a big difference. The  Projects priority determined by the amount of donations and community contributions. It works more in the real world and makes contributing to a project simple and easy . This is important for intention to become action.

This is a very easy to implement solution. I hope the dev Team implements it or something similar because we all, the community, will benefit. If I can be of any help please let me know.

Joachim

[da8iwr]

Please don't let me take anybodies position here but i have had an idea for a while and kind of kept it to myself for a while especially now with the talks of the GPL licence thing.

I have just done the RSS feeder that I have been trying to drum up a little attention with in the rest of the forum, and whilst doing it found that VirtueMart needs some serious updating. Not in code quality or anything like that as that is excellent, but in the fields and options available. For example one of the things that Froogle asks for is the MPN (Manufacturers Part Number), the Bar Code, and a few other bits, well actually more like a list a mile long. Here are a few squillion attributes that Google would like to use to make your products more search-able in their system.
http://base.google.co.uk/base/help/products.html#specific

What i wanted to do, is make a club like rocket themes that you join for the extra support, but also with the extra financial help we would develop and produce like a VirtueMart Pro version with a list of extras that can be developed with the time the financial help gives, that would then be given for free to the core team when we have the next version ready or a period of time has gone past. So every time a new version of VM comes out, we would take it and a few days later release it again with the new bits and bobs.

You would also then have a paid dedicated team to help you out when you get stuck, so when you write a note on the forum, it will be answered with an answer from a professional team of coders who are paid to sit there and answer them, rather than praying somebody during their lunch break will happen to spot your question and also have the time to answer it, which we all know how many unanswered questions there are on the Virtuemart forums.

I'm not trying to take VirtueMart away from the core programmer's in fact nothing like that, I want to help them with the commercial time that the money will allow including bringing them in on this. I am more than happy to pay for my share of the system, as I charge quite good money every time I sell a site using Joomla and VM, so I think the serious guys here that really do make their living from this probably wouldn't mind giving a few hundred pounds per year to help improve the product that helps put food on their table.

Im sure the main reason why these extras aren't there already after all these years is purely based on "money Vs Time", and it is starting to really annoy me this talk about open source and putting back into the community. I will give it to the community, but the people complaining take this system and then sell it to their clients. So people expect others to work on perfect hack free and secure code for free then its ok for others to sell it them selves or make their own shop which in turn makes money, and if the programmers ask for help financially they are out of order!!!

Be serious, what ever the GPL says (and yes i have read it back to front) doesn't make that theory correct.

I could put a wish list on here a mile long of extras, but most of them will need the system to have permanent hacks, like extra fields and information to be input into the system on the product page.

Here are a few

- Sage accounting and stock control link, I have a client waiting for that now!
- How about a proper mini accounts system, allowing people to add in outgoings as well, for the smaller one man businesses, like an online shop, its already 70% or so there, just add the few extra options to do the rest
- Make it 100% validate in XHTML
- Multiple shop system working bug free to make like an online department store
- Get a simple auction bit working
- A full site map, built in
- Template choice (visually like in the Joomla template manager) for category and fly-page.
- Template installer system, to allow others to sell templates that can be installed
- Froogle product information, so product type, ISBN code etc will be chosen from drop down menus.
- Show orders by user, so what has each user ordered, my clients all ask why it isn't there. This would then open up suggested products, so as you upload a product it could automatically fire an email to the past buyer to tell them about it increasing sales potential.
- "Other people also found these products interesting" so as you add the product to your basket, it would then automatically suggest other products the system thinks are related.
- Basket is saved to each user, so even when they log-out at work and go home, or a few weeks later, the products are still in their account. (Every client I have asks about this)
- EBay shop link and set up to synchronise the shops, which i have seen on other commercial systems.
- A much better multiple image system (but I'm sure i read that's in VM1.1)
- Turn menus on and off in the admin, so a small one man business doesn't become too confused with huge amounts of options that they will never need or use.

(please excuse me if some of them are already in there, its just what i have been asked for by my clients and even though i have built hundreds of sites, i very rarely use it )

I have already priced many parts of this kind of work up with a few VERY GOOD freelancers and companies I have worked with, and you are looking at about $3000 USD or so, which is a lot, but in GBP that's only about £1500, so if 50 people paid to be part of this club £30 per year, the work is paid for.

Imagine the system you could then sell to your clients, to be honest I don't think there is even a commercial ecommerce system on the market at the moment that could equal that spec.

But I honestly believe the next big move required is price comparison sites compatibility, and not just Google Base.

Would this idea annoy too many people, especially all you die hard Open Source guys?

Sorry for the grammar errors, but its almost 4am here and I was just about to go to bed, when I read this thread and decided to spend another 45 mins writing this up.

[Stacey Schaller]

I do like Joachim's idea.

Coders could submit proposed component ideas along with the minimum cash amount they are willing to accept for designing the component. Then, Site designers could donate whatever they are willing to contribute until the minimum has been achieved. Once that amount is raised, each of the Donors is billed through PayPal (or whatever) and work commences. Once the component is complete, the cash that was raised goes to the coder(s) and the component goes Open-Source.

So - if you have a client drooling over a feature, you will pitch in the dough and pass the expense on to the client.The work will get done more quickly, and the client will be happy. Then, those without the funds to purchase components will simply wait (how-ever long) until the adequate funding is raised and the component is publicly released.

One thing that does happen, as things now stand, is that people tend to build what they need, and we, who have not contributed cash toward the project, for whatever reason, will be putting "sweat equity" into the project by contributing our coding efforts for the benefit of the community at some point in time. This may be a slower way to get things done, but in the absence of an organized way to pass the cash, this does seem to be working pretty well.

Anyway, just my 2¢ worth...

Stacey

[crackdaddy]

the concept of an open source project with a community development is functionally sound if it is implimented correctly, as you have many people working on a comon goal and many people working to make it better.

the problem is when things are fixed or improved by people
who do not have the direct power to impliment them into the core project.
the effort is wasted and everyone looses.
-devlopers  also might not adhear to the coding standards need to integrate into the core project, there by beeing a waste of effort.
-each task of the needed additon to the core is not fully discussed so all the bases are corvered before the work is started
-core tasks are not designed or engineered correctly to be db driven and scalable for future upgrades to subfeature sets
- too many people are trying to do the same things in each of their own ways( many people are builind/coding for the same functionality but each with their own specifics then need, instead of designing the core function with all the options every is needing built in it)
- you can never have too much functionality, just cause you dont need its no big deal

these are basic principles that should be applied to development regardless if you pay or dont for the development
i am or paying if i dont have time to code it...provided it is done correctly
but i think it should be released back at the same time to everyone for the greater good of the project
your money paid for your need to have asap which you got,, and everone else will have the pleasure of also receiving the benifit, but that dosnt mean they want it or actually need it... it just builds the project up so everyone will benifit even you, because if you paid for the mod and release it back the same time you get it, it can be integrated into the core , and now that is off the check list and the core team(the community will not redevelope the same thing beause you were greedy) so the core vm project leaps ahead, removing this item from the list, now they can either work to make it better or focus on something else... everyone wins, beacuse you also get access to the core and other things you want that get done for free now get done faster thanks to you

so if its done correctly, i am all for paying for a job.
if we(as a community ) are going to pay developers, it should be handled thru this website in a specal area, and integrated into the core "to do" list so we are all on the same page and no one wastes their time on something that is already being completed
there should also be a standard that the developer must adhear to as being qualified to make it work, and keep to the standards of the project so the code can be integrated into the core--- no patches or hacks
...its all about building up the project ...there is no point to making somethings if everytime the core is updated, you have tyo modd out a bunch of crap...or you cnat update beacuse you modded something...

the core vm team(the people who are the final sayso) must focus on getting this code into the core vm asap.. and releasing the new build as soon as it integrated....
if the core vm team is not open to change and ingration of the core in a timely manner then we must consider a new buld of the project and seperate away...much like joomla did from mambo

at some point i also feel we must redeisgn this platform from the ground up...most likely when joomla1.5 comes out stable... vm was born from an illdesigned cart called mambo shop....we spend most our time fixing the bulshit left from it to make it work correct ....and the other time reengineering the stucture of it to make it function the way it should have been desinged to begin with....i feel it would be best to redeisgn this cart from the ground up....an "throw away all the code"

anyway those are my 2cents

[Joachim A]

Hi Stacey,

Thanks for your feedback. Very good overview of the process.  Now it only has to get done. I really think this will benefit us all. I also agree that once the feature is developed it has to go to open source. All of us have benefited from it and it is a great way to give back to the community. With more goodies!
I don't think it is necessary to "escrow" the funds. I think is has to be commitment based and managed by The Virtuemart Dev Tem.

Now we just need an Ear for this to be implemented. Its just a matter of installing VM in Virtuemart.net  and adapting it a bit.
Please let me know if there is anything i can do to help implementing this.
Joachim

[Joachim A]

Hi Crackdaddy,

You got some very good points there, specially the one about the  developed parts retaining their functionality. This is crucial.

No matters how new  features are developed, in the core team or outsourced, they have to maintain uniformity and functionality as VM upgrades.

The point is that It would be great to have a system that can bridge customers needs and development by creating an avenue to easily finance a speciffic projects. They can become part of the core or not depending on their functionalities.

I think that VM is an awsome shopping cart. It has great features and great potential of development. I love it and thats  why I chose it. 

I also think that development can be greatly accelerated if it takes full advantage of  Joomla's modular philosophy .

Some food for thought,
Joachim

[aravot]

I do agree VM developers do their own thing without listening to users requests, there are really good hacks / modification but none are implemented don't know why.

Since the announcement that VM will be Joomla only, some guy(s) want to fork the project into Mambo if that happens, hope other developers listen to the users and implement stuff that matters.

[Joachim A]

Hi Aravot

My experience, to the contrary, has been that the Team listeners to users.

As a community we got to be aware that there are always limitations, including time and money among others. Any development is a process where the products is going trough stages of improvement. From this point of view I really can appreciate the great effort the VM team has made and the great results that  have been acomplished.

I see it as more of a matter of implementing  systems  that connect users, with specific needs and that have the resources to finance it, and the developers, for the benefit of the community as a whole. New possibilities to increase financing, accelerate development of new features and perhaps fresh ideas that bring VM to the next level.

Joachim