Virtuemart Dead or Alive ? Whats the roadmap and future ?

Started by dirkb, December 17, 2020, 15:50:12 PM

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zheekan

Quote from: Studio 42 on April 27, 2021, 13:54:26 PM
If you follow Joomla logic you can't have another design so I redesigned all the logic, it's why i use own template and component.
The problem is that in this case you can have some trouble(for eg in some cusotomfields plugins) it's why The Vm team cannot rewrite the full logic.
For eg. Why you cannot add directly a new customfield directly in the product ?
Vm is good in front but need really a new complet redesign(and template) and not only some CSS.
For eg. loading all categories is poor in big shops. i Only lad the categories that are in the product and on click i load the list.
So to say, it's not the fault of the team, but of Joomla admin logic and template.
I wrote Joomla admin templates to replace default one, but each time you have some problems because some component do not use core CSS(vm too), it's why i used a front end template and component, so i have no conflit with most components, modules, plugins ... 
So yes my solution is not ideal, but it work fine.
Note that one of my plugin conflict wiht new Virtuemart template, so a new admin template solution is not 100% safe too.

I understand what youre saying, and that is the biggest reason why the rehaul should be done by the VM team.
After all Joomla 4 is just behind the corner, and maybe that's a good point in time to consider VM4.
Again, I don't have the slightest idea about how much effort is required to take a component like VM and thoroughly rework it in to a 2021 component, but I want to know and I want to contribute if possible ;D

With Joomla 4 on the horizon and the unexpected crazyness that the pandemic created businesswise, I'm looking for strong tools that will enable me to have a streamlined workflow for my business for next 3 to 5 years. I think lots of my one-man-band colleagues might be looking for the same thing.
Also, I hope to be corrected if I'm wrong  ;D

zheekan

Quote from: pinochico on April 27, 2021, 14:03:40 PM
QuoteA question to any of the admins following this topic: Is this something that we should discuss at all, or are we wasting time?

This is the right question :)

Anytime I see one of your comments I can't help but get the feeling you're talking from a negative standpoint. I might be wrong - I also have a problem with getting my ideas across without something being lost in translation (english is not my first language...) , but still that is the feeling I get.
By reading your comments I see that you invested a substantial ammount of time and effort in providing plugins for VM and that you even tried to buy/overtake the VM project.
But, as I understood from some other topics I read here on the forum, VM is intended to be an opensource project and the founders want to keep it that way.
That should be respected, after all they are the ones that created it. If we understand that, then we can try and offer some assistance if it is wanted/needed, but we can't expect the founders to follow our ideas and requests.
If they keep one eye open to the discussions here, than they are surely aware of what we're saying. But keep in mind that there's just a few people in this topic discussing the issues we're discussing, and thousands more that are using the component to the best of their abilities that are silent.
The picture we're trying to paint here might be completely different from the founders' perspective, even though it is the correct picture from our point of view  ;)

Hence the question, should we discuss this?

pinochico

To Zheekan:

I understand you very much, but you are based on bad assumptions (at least if I have information)

Trademark VirtueMart was purchased by Max == all important development decisions are up to him.

So it's not open source in the true sense, if I understand correctly.
This is a project that is free and anyone can take it over and reprogram it (but can't use the VirtueMart brand - just like we used EasyVirtueMart), but when it comes to development - I don't have current information now - but Max still has the main and final word. , which obtains funding from the entire project in a different way.

If you don't convince Max of a different direction of development than he is convinced, we can discuss and contribute ideas here - as you can see many developers prefer to program their own solution (administration ...)

My comments may seem negative (yes, even my forum posts don't usually provide a solution in PHP - this is a familiar thing if I see that the user is using the forum instead of ordering a developer and not trying to find a solution before asking (like me) - and yet he is working on a commercial solution = he will get money for it), but it is only currently reconciling with the state of affairs and rather stating a state with which there is nothing much to do.

It is also due to the fact that I no longer have 5 developers available, which I would commission, pay for and develop a new version myself (as I had available in 2015).

You write that Woo Commerce has many interesting things.

We implemented the same things in EasyRedmine in 2016 - an automatic installation guide with help, with many videos and documentation within the administration, automatic reminders of what's new in the style of today's Google, reminders of what still needs to be set up and other things. Unfortunately, it is now too late to imagine that the same things could have been implemented in Virtuemart as early as 2016 (when Woo Commerce could have imagined all the functions in the VM).

You also need to realize that Woo Commerce is programmed by the same people and owners as Wordpress and is an official and supported ecommerce solution from Wordpress with clear code control.

Unfortunately, VirtueMart is not in such a position.
It is not programmed by Joomla
It does not have code quality control from Joomla
There is no official ecommerce solution for Joomla

I will be happy to contribute to the improvement of VirtueMart (and I will take advantage of years of using the VM from version 1 - use as an admin, but also use from our clients and their requirements ...).

Software development (albeit open source) is not about discussing what if (look at J4 for how long they discuss and it leads nowhere - they just add more and more features that someone in the discussion invents and when the new WP comes out - they can only discuss ).
It must have a clear idea and idea and vision for the future, and this is not made up of people in the forums, but a narrow circle of people who decide what will be programmed, how and why.

We also do not program everything that customers write to us that they would like.

Or compare the development of open source ecommerce solutions of Czech origin to symphony - Shopsys.
Although it is open source, the development is determined and approved by the same people who program the same version for commercial high-tech business solutions such as www.alza.cz == those people who have money from it (not someone on the forum)
Once you understand this essential difference, then you will find that open source and forum is only for gaining a base of developers, but the main development is up to the code owner - he determines the development (not discussion on the forum)
Please be realistic - not cheers developers students in one room ..

So where VirtueMart is now and what the code is, is not a bad discussion or a lack of suggestions for improvement, but a vision of the main programmer and its fulfillment.

P.S.
We can easily move the discussion to my email.
www.minijoomla.org  - new portal for Joomla!, Virtuemart and other extensions
XML Easy Feeder - feeds for FB, GMC,.. from products, categories, orders, users, articles, acymailing subscribers and database table
Virtuemart Email Manager - customs email templates
Import products for Virtuemart - from CSV and XML
Rich Snippets - Google Structured Data
VirtueMart Products Extended - Slider with products, show Others bought, Products by CF ID and others filtering products

zheekan

I find it quite logical that someone has the last word in a project like this, especially if that person is possibly the same person that initiated the development of the app. (Btw, is he?)
He's been in this for how long, 15 years? I'm not trying to convince him to do anything, the law of supply and demand will decide who has the best vision. VM will either supply what the market asks for, or someone else will come and do it. What you and I are asking for might not be what the majority of the market is asking for.
That's why I'm just suggesting some advancements I would benefit from, and wondering if others would benefit from them as well.
And once again, that's why I'm asking if the developers are interested in seeing a discussion like this (and if so, is there a roadmap of any kind?).

If yes, let's discuss.
If no, I have to look for other solutions, but I will keep an eye on what's going on in VM world.

pinochico

Quoteif that person is possibly the same person that initiated the development of the app.

Hmm, I think the first was Sören, Max comming later for VM2 after our version EasyVirtuemart for J15 - on JoomlaDay in Prague in 2015 he was suprised about our customfields for VM1 (Yes, customfields was our idea and implemented in VM1 first).

I would really like to contribute as well and believe that it will help something, but it must be systemic and logical steps.

For example, why was an administration created with the new VMUIKIT framework incompatible with Joomla 3/4?
Valerie could have saved her time and devoted her strength elsewhere.

Why is Patrik creating his own BS3-compatible administration with installation issues and not improving his extensions?

Why does VM use an outdated version of JS as a modal nowadays?
Because of the MIT license? 7 years is it not possible to use another modern way?

In my opinion, the whole development is unconceptual, chaotic and has no goal.

There are many extensions that fix the fundamental flaws of using VirtueMart ecommerce solutions for today's world.

Why there are many and answers are few.

At the same time, the basic code is great, a few logical adjustments would be enough to speed up and upgrade.

Instead, the VM for custom classes vm is rewritten for 5 years so that Virtuemart can be ported back as a standalone application to wordpress.
It was already here as a PSSHOP (even today it is possible to find remnants of old code).

I am also waiting for the next development, especially in terms of use for our large clients.

We use both VirtueMart and Woo commerce == I can compare.

Α make no mistake, if I use any ecommerce solution for really bussines eshop (fast and with many features), I have to invest hundreds of hours to customize it.

But we are still creating e-shops on VirtueMart for customers,
every week we expand information on Joomla Czech Cafe,
we develop and sell many extensions for VirtueMart and especially:
we still trust him.
www.minijoomla.org  - new portal for Joomla!, Virtuemart and other extensions
XML Easy Feeder - feeds for FB, GMC,.. from products, categories, orders, users, articles, acymailing subscribers and database table
Virtuemart Email Manager - customs email templates
Import products for Virtuemart - from CSV and XML
Rich Snippets - Google Structured Data
VirtueMart Products Extended - Slider with products, show Others bought, Products by CF ID and others filtering products

zheekan

Quote from: pinochico on April 28, 2021, 07:49:00 AM
I would really like to contribute as well and believe that it will help something, but it must be systemic and logical steps.

Well, then you need to approach the team in a systemic and logical way, practice what you preach  ;D
The first step would probably be to see if help is wanted. There's nothing helpful in randomly pointing out all the things that are wrong, it's chaotic (at least in this conversation).

Also, if it's just a discussion between the two of us then we need to move on  ;)

Studio 42

zheekan, i was  2 years in the team as main dev, but i have not same approch as max, so we was not able to work together more times
Max wanted a system so Virtuemart can use plugins for all needs(the idea is not bad) but not really wanted change the admin logic.
My customer want a better UI for all days task. And Virtuemart need many changes to do this and be faster. But  he follow the Joomla logic for this(not full ajax for eg.), other Joomla components are not better.
The virtuemart problem is same as Joomla, they follow own logic and not the market logic or real user needs.
For eg why you have so much page builders(and poor html code) in Joomla ?

Free XML sitemap generator [url="http://shop.st42.fr/en/catalog/products/virtuemart-2-sitemap.htm"]http://shop.st42.fr/en/catalog/products/virtuemart-2-sitemap.htm[/url]  , Free Unused Image cleaner [url="http://shop.st42.fr/en/products/virtuemart-media-folder-clear.htm"]http://shop.st42.fr/en/products/virtuemart-media-folder-clear.htm[/url]
Language Switch in product & category [url="http://shop.st42.fr/en/categories-tools/multi-language-for-virtuemart.htm"]http://shop.st42.fr/en/categories-tools/multi-language-for-virtuemart.htm[/url]
More extentions [url="http://shop.st42.fr/en/"]http://shop.st42.fr/en/[/url]

zheekan

Great, thank you for sharing this info.
Many questions are coming your way now ;D

Considering that you were a part of the core team, do you have an opinion of where VM is heading to in the next few years of development?
Judging by your words, there's a possibility that we can't expect much to change in the UI department?
If so, is VM in its current (and future) state compatible with a plugin of some sort that could change the way users interact with VM itself?

zheekan

Oh yes, and regarding the number of page builders in Joomla. I see that it's happening in other systems as well, at least in WP it is.
I think that's because there's an increasing demand for CMSs to be manageable by non developers too.
So now they have to cater to (at least) two very different user types that need two different workflows.
I don't know how that will be solved by the core teams of the respective CMSs, so for now it is solved by third-party page builders. Maybe that's not the right way to go from your perspective, but it enables more people to create something online themselves.

Maybe that's the only way for our VM problems to be solved.

ermes

Quote from: Studio 42 on April 28, 2021, 11:46:20 AM
But  he follow the Joomla logic for this(not full ajax for eg.), other Joomla components are not better.
The virtuemart problem is same as Joomla, they follow own logic and not the market logic or real user needs.

I do not agree. Joomla provides the ability to create modern interfaces that take advantage of ajax (via com_ajax). And to be honest I don't think it's even that complex to implement a modern BE / FE. I think the problem is, as others have said, that the core team is focused on something else. On unappetizing logics.
Starting from the ajax functionalities already present in Virtuemart (frontend side, like cart actions) which are made as I would have done them 10 years ago. No offense to anyone.

zheekan

Quote from: ermes on April 28, 2021, 18:44:40 PM
Quote from: Studio 42 on April 28, 2021, 11:46:20 AM
But  he follow the Joomla logic for this(not full ajax for eg.), other Joomla components are not better.
The virtuemart problem is same as Joomla, they follow own logic and not the market logic or real user needs.

I do not agree. Joomla provides the ability to create modern interfaces that take advantage of ajax (via com_ajax). And to be honest I don't think it's even that complex to implement a modern BE / FE. I think the problem is, as others have said, that the core team is focused on something else. On unappetizing logics.
Starting from the ajax functionalities already present in Virtuemart (frontend side, like cart actions) which are made as I would have done them 10 years ago. No offense to anyone.

I don't think any offense will be taken if we discuss like this. These are just the facts for some of us.
Also, I don't think I can add anything meaningful to a discussion about how the code is done or should be done, I don't have the required knowledge.
But I can assure you that Joomla is a valuable tool for me and my clients. It works as intended 99% of the time, and when it doesn't it's usually because I've done a dumb mistake.

I'm sure that from a developers point of view both VM and Joomla can be much, much better and deliver cleaner and more secure output, but the sites I put out for my clients are reasonably fast to load, are secure enough that I extremely rarely have any issues with kids hacking into them (I do use Akeeba Admin Tools - most of hack attempts start with trying to access the /wp-admin link :D ) and are pretty painless to update to new versions. And I'm no expert, I just use the tools that are on offer right now, and if the tools are pricy but efective, I buy them.
And while we're on the subject of tools, joomla has more than enough third-party plugins to extend the functionality to the point where I easily consider Joomla to be number one for me. WP has more for sure, but the whole system is much more unstable from my point of view.

My oppinion is that the only thing Joomla truly lacks right now is a great eShop solution, and market demand for that has never been bigger. There's a few solutions out there and VP might be the first one (is it?), but there is no true number one.

Ermes, you say that it shouldn't be that complex to implement a modern UI. Are you advanced enough to make that statement because you understand how all this wizardry works, or are you assuming? I'm not trying to provoke or be an asshole, I'm genuinely interested, because I'm at a point where I could just be crazy enough  to start thinking about how to solve this problem.

pinochico

Although Joomla has com_ajax, it unfortunately uses outdated jquery and outdated BS.
The new version is in sight and ecommerce requirements are evolving faster than Joomla's development.
Yes, Joomla still has its advantages, especially lately, when content is becoming more and more important thanks to google, but it is necessary to build the right foundation as soon as possible.
And then build the right ecommerce solution.
With advanced real-time search, advanced and very fast real-time filtering.
With the possibility of importing and exporting data, with the possibility of marketing emails, with connection to automatic marketing tools.
All this with a modern, accessible and, most importantly, simple administration.
And I'm not talking about an e-shop with hundreds of products (I can buy an online box for that) but an e-shop with hundreds of thousands of tailor-made products.
www.minijoomla.org  - new portal for Joomla!, Virtuemart and other extensions
XML Easy Feeder - feeds for FB, GMC,.. from products, categories, orders, users, articles, acymailing subscribers and database table
Virtuemart Email Manager - customs email templates
Import products for Virtuemart - from CSV and XML
Rich Snippets - Google Structured Data
VirtueMart Products Extended - Slider with products, show Others bought, Products by CF ID and others filtering products

zheekan

Quote from: pinochico on April 28, 2021, 21:22:37 PM
And I'm not talking about an e-shop with hundreds of products (I can buy an online box for that) but an e-shop with hundreds of thousands of tailor-made products.

Who needs that?

pinochico

www.minijoomla.org  - new portal for Joomla!, Virtuemart and other extensions
XML Easy Feeder - feeds for FB, GMC,.. from products, categories, orders, users, articles, acymailing subscribers and database table
Virtuemart Email Manager - customs email templates
Import products for Virtuemart - from CSV and XML
Rich Snippets - Google Structured Data
VirtueMart Products Extended - Slider with products, show Others bought, Products by CF ID and others filtering products

zheekan

Don't get me wrong, but if I had clients that needed online solutions for hundreds of thousands of products and are willing to pay a fair price for something like that, I wouldn't be looking at VM or any other CMS solution that I've seen up until now. I'd have a team of devs that would create a custom solution that maybe could be based off of something like VM.

How much would you charge for a shop that is capable of managing that enormous number of products?
And are you expecting to get VM that is capable of doing that for free?