Why Redmine

[Rune Rasmussen]

Max, what problems are you talking about now? Only problem lately was some inactive users that needed to be removed. Seems like you are just posting crap about other people now, to make yourself look better. Sad thing.

This isn't the only forum in the world, where support is offered. Also VirtueMart was quite popular some years ago, when it was run by Sören, and a lot of support was given in local forums and local languages by me and others. I have actually used and supported Joomla and VirtueMart from before it was named so.

mostly built on the way posts are responded to on the forums.

Because you blame and demand quite often

I wasn't talking about my posts or topics, but this forum in general. And then not only your posts, but all posts in general also.

Don't you see Max, that also they way you and others respond to people, might backfire? There's more than one involved in most cases which escalates.

Edit! Anyhow, sorry for hurting your feelings Max. We've both have gone fare off topic now, let us sort it out on chat during the week. I have moderated this last post myself now, so we (hopefully) have a better starting point for the future.

[Milbo]

I have actually used and supported Joomla and VirtueMart from before it was named so.

You said it, joomla. It is our fundament and creates permanent problems for us. Keeps us busy all the time to create code which works backward compatible, that means on old versions and new versions and additionally the upgrade should not break it.

if you want to change the tone in the forum, go ahead. All veterans will appreciate it :-) and newbies anyway.

[Studio 42]

Hi Max,
I never had personnally said something bad about you, but you assault me just because I have not the same opinion as you.
Some forum simply pretend not to have a problem on your atitude but nevertheless say in private conversation. The only concern, perhaps, is that I am honest and I'm not a double-crosser.

I don't come here to search you, you only feel it so. If the user had no problem with the core. Why then i resolve bugs in the forum?
I only inform you from bugs because i, my customer, french Joomla user had or have the problem.
Not that you agress me.

We have work together without any problem more then 18 months. You was happy that i help you for FREE.
And now each time you mean, i'm here to fight against you.

Check simply in the forum. You answer aggressively my messages and not many time the opposite.

I think , you only try to calm down yourself. And all would be good in the best of the world

[Rune Rasmussen]

When it comes to Joomla it's actually possible to test it before it's released, comment and propose patches. And then I'm not thinking on you alone Max, but the developers and users of both. One thing to consider though is that you always blame others for things not working, I can't recall to have seen you posting anything like a "Sorry, my mistake. I gentleed it up, but will fix it soon." - it would help a lot sometimes.

if you want to change the tone in the forum, go ahead. All veterans will appreciate it :-) and newbies anyway.

While I agree it would be good to change the tone in the forum, it would not help if it's only happens on one side. For the accusations, all should read for themself to see if they really are true and one-sided only: http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=33400

Btw! If anyone believes that someone posting lot's of "go figure itself" kind of posts in a forum, is more valuable and helping out more than those translating and providing local help - try it out yourself for several extensions and  the Joomla core. Se if it's much time left for anything else on the end of the day.

Anyhow, well chat more soon as agreed on Skype yesterday.

[Milbo]

Studio42 there are really a lot forum posts in which you accuse me for this or that.

and rune, you make the tone yourself. just look on the first post of this thread.

I just have to ask, why Redmine?

Why not GitHub or whatever else where it's possible to contribute easily with code reviews, suggestions/pull requests, issues etc?

Why are VM still in the dark middle-ages?

First you blame redmine. Redmine has all of this features, but they are deactivated. Then you say "Why are VM still in the dark middle-ages?"

Actually I wonder why I just not deleted the whole nonsense. You clearly show that you dont know redmine and you blame VM to be in the middle-ages.

later you tell how great the time was in vm1.1 with Sören, but your own forum posts show the opposite. Next, compare the amount of versions, the new features in vm1 times with the vm2/vm3 times. You will be amazed how fast the development is compared to vm1 times. Btw Sören wrote in the first 7 years around 3000 posts, while I wrote in 7 years more than 7000 posts. We give tips and tricks in the forum, hints and all that, but we cannot do the work for others.

[Studio 42]

I nevre

Studio42 there are really a lot forum posts in which you accuse me for this or that.

I never accuse someone, i only give a response.
Sometime banquet Pro(or another guy) give bad answer. I correct the answer and had never problem with them.
Of course i give a poster reference to clarify my answer, when this is needed

[Rune Rasmussen]

Yeah, he is not everyones favorite, because he says things without putting sugar around his words, but well, some only need the facts and some need the sugar.

Neither do I. But as you can see Max, others has noticed it too, it's not only me. Frustration has been posted from us both lately.

For Redmine, it isn't looking or appearing to be much user friendly no. For VM as a Open Source project, it's indeed not much of a modern organisation, or documentation on how to contribute, coding standards etc. It's all spread, outdated or simply missing. So yes, as a whole it's somewhat still in the dark middle ages.

But if you just can wait a bit, I'll try to explain better how I see things to you on Skype, as soon as I have time for it. Instead of us continuing to throw mud in all directions here...

[Milbo]

Useless to comment it.

But here you can see how easy it is to committ something to the project http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=131346.msg452938 (the git was not necessary)

[Studio 42]

Git is not needed for you, but for contributor.
It's exactly what the linked topic made clear.
If All was on github. No need to do a zip, send patch.
DO a branch, write your code,commit, pull request. If the main branch, don't want use the commit then you can ignore it.
But this permit other to use this branch to check and add new fixes and do a new pull request later. And synchronize the branch, if it's needed.
This mean you can have parallel development, but synchronize your code with another branch if needed. Have tester for a branch without adding it to main code.

[Milbo]

no it has nothing todo with Git Patrick, absolutly nothing.

I did not used the patch, I used the installable zip, not more. The reason I took it was that it was good written.

[Studio 42]

Problem in all case is parallel development in SVN.
YOu cannot developpe a branch and interact wth unoffical developper in SVN.
This is not a problem in Github.
You can have a branch fixing a bug, and another working on a feature, another team working on the plugins part ,and each time synchronize/ merge branches if it's needed....
I only say that some developper do not add fixes because they cannot propose it and test, it's to complicate because svn cannot be used for all.
I know you want protect code from error, but currently you block code from some third party developers.
This would not be the case in github and you have always the full control of the main branch.
It was the last post for me about Github. I think i have loose enought time now.
Thanks Rune Rasmussen for your try .
Patrick

[Milbo]

You do not even understand that. He could have used svn, git, or nothing. It makes no difference for me.

"I know you want protect code from error, but currently you block code from some third party developers."

This is a lie, just a lie. The third party developer can use our svn, or our svn with git, or his own svn ,or his own git.

Btw, the proof that you just lie is above. The developer just presented his code and we took it,... thats it, it can be very easy.

It depends on your code, not if I use git or not.

[lindapowers]

Ill let you guys know the opinion of several users of VirtueMart including me.

The system is great, really growing in a good way, bug fixes are great but we could be in a much advanced state by now, including many features that were never added.

There are many talented developers (including Patrick) which have posted fixes, codes and in our opinion they dont get the attention they need.

Max you are a great developer but too strickt, we all contribute in one or other way to improve the system and many developers have fallen during the years or surrendered trying to add code.

You may say I know nothing about code and developing and this has to follow some rules and I can't reply to that but please, let all this guys help you Max, I think the objective of all this people is to improve the system.

You can see posts with code in this same section where guys get no attention in their code posting or suggestions, including a feature a developer did for us which looks great in custom fields and one would consider a basic thing. I posted the code and didnt even get a reply not to mention it wasn't added.

[AH]

Code Select Expand

Max you are a great developer but too strickt

I have to strongly disagree - @max acts as the gatekeeper and product manager to the project - his diligence is required - this may result in blockages or items not making the release for many reasons.  That is the challenge for any would be providers, to make strong  business or technical representations for such changes to be included.

Git no Git this is a moot point - the same logic for having development included still applies - the mechanism by which such development is submitted/proposed still subsumes to the project/business benefits and the workload of the "gatekeeper/s".

many developers have fallen during the years or surrendered trying to add code.

Sad though this may be, it appears to be a natural thing for open source projects.  Look at the Joomla project in general, developers come and go - and as some of them go, they point fingers of criticism to justify their exit (read a number of Joomla posts that did this.)

The system is great, really growing in a good way, bug fixes are great but we could be in a much advanced state by now, including many features that were never added.

That is a great point - and IMHO is because of the approach the project takes - we might be more advanced, but we could also be more fragmented and have many more problems, yes we may get frustrated because our ideas fall by the wayside, but the VM project is alive and developing in a positive way.

Lively debate is the feature of any product development - but as per all projects that are well managed - not everyone's ideas get taken everytime.

Maybe Max has something to say regarding the way developers can stand a better chance of getting their items reviewed for possible inclusion.

[Milbo]

There are many talented developers (including Patrick) which have posted fixes, codes and in our opinion they dont get the attention they need.

I explained this really very, very often. Anyone can work with us, SVN is also version numbering system. We work all the time together on different pieces of the code. Look at this revision http://dev.virtuemart.net/projects/virtuemart/repository/revisions/8956
Maik was working weeks on it, parallel while I did other core stuff and Alatak committed for the payment plugins. Patrick was strongly bound in the team and had also committ rights. So he was working with us, but he did not kept the main rule "stay at your task, do not edit files others working on". You say this can be solved with GIT? no! It cannot solved by GIT, it is a logical problem. You would have the same problems with GIT. Example, someone changes a well used function. He changed the 200 locations in the code, but missed 1-2. Patrick meanwhile worked on something else, got an error, opened the file with the function and reverted it and committs that. The normal way is to check the logs, to see that the function just got changed and to talk with the dev who did that. I lost really days, if not weeks by this behaviour, hunting already solved bugs. He is also known within the team as "fixes one, breaks two". This is nothing you can solve with GIT.
Actuallly GIT can fast lead to more clustered code. The advantage of git is also the disadvantage, that more and more developers do not work on the original code, but on their small customised forks instead. Then they develop something new and it works for their fork, but not for the original. Yeyeh test with the original, but experience shows that most devs test a patch just on their dev environment.

You can see posts with code in this same section where guys get no attention in their code posting or suggestions, including a feature a developer did for us which looks great in custom fields and one would consider a basic thing. I posted the code and didnt even get a reply not to mention it wasn't added.

You dont get the point, it is not that we do ignore them. If someone wants to add a new feature it depends on its complexity. If it is a small thing we may add it, but if it is a complex feature, the developer must assure that he does the maintenance.
Take as example the stockable plugin, which was not developed by the core team, but a good teammember. As you know, there is no stockable plugin provided by the core anylonger, the reason is that the developer was not interested to todo the maintenance anylonger. So if you just think, "new feature, great, lets take it" without considering the long term effects, you are too short sighted.

Btw, someone wrote an updated stockable, he did not even ask me, if we wanna have it and provides it only on his page. I wonder if this is fair.