VirtueMart Forum

VirtueMart 2 + 3 => General Questions => Topic started by: Milbo on April 25, 2011, 18:42:18 pm

Title: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on April 25, 2011, 18:42:18 pm
Testing the last j1.6.3 we run into completly new problems with j1.6. We get a lot new errors, which are mostly in the libraries of joomla

While I was thinking about how to handle the fast changes in the j1.6 family, I found this article from Fotis about the j1.6 situation.

http://blog.joomlaworks.gr/why-were-not-porting-k2-to-joomla-16-the-life#more

I didnt spoke with our j1.6 developers, but I think they see it simular. It is almost impossible to hold a release date, when the joomla guys make their changes so fast  :'( . So the decision for now is that we won't support j1.6. So please don't report anylonger bugs related to j1.6.x.

VM2 is afaik working already on j1.6.1 ! But not higher.

So VM2 wont support j1.6, maybe directly j1.7  ::) .
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jenkinhill on April 25, 2011, 18:56:02 pm
Nicholas at Akeeba has also last week reported considerable problems with Joomla 1.6 and has withdrawn active 1.6 support.
https://www.akeebabackup.com/home/item/1093-joomla-16-will-be-partially-supported.html
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: red2678 on April 26, 2011, 03:15:06 am
SUX! I just started a 1.6 site and am starting to seriously regret it!
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on April 26, 2011, 21:47:52 pm
Well - I suppose there was or still is some frustration among developers about things like this one:
http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla/tracker/?action=TrackerItemEdit&tracker_item_id=25657 (http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla/tracker/?action=TrackerItemEdit&tracker_item_id=25657)
 :D
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jenkinhill on April 26, 2011, 23:53:22 pm
And even more complications for template developers with J1.6: http://www.rockettheme.com/forum/index.php?f=497&t=129860&rb_v=viewtopic

With J1.7 due in 2-3 months and 1.8 at the beginning of next year I am starting to wonder how 3rd party developers can find the time to fully test their components with every single Joomla update, and yet still find time to continue their own component development.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on April 27, 2011, 09:16:08 am
And even more complications for template developers...
...IMHO they would not have that problem if they were actually developing "templates" instead of moving more and more component/module/plugin functions into what they call templates. My experience so far is that life is a little bit easier (less conflicts) if you don't use them. Personally I tend to think that in the long run it is a good idea to avoid templates that come with more than i.e. 150kb of code... ;D

(BTW - I just had my template intended to be used on my J1.6.3/VM2 site ready to go...  :'()

Concerning J1.6.3 and future versions I suppose that there won't be any more rapid changes like in the past few weeks.
I'm not a developer, but after reading the latest contribution to the developers blog from Mark Dexter, I suppose the third party developers now can expect a more smooth J1.6.x development process for the next year or so...
http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1442-wanted-new-features-for-version-17.html (http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1442-wanted-new-features-for-version-17.html)
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: impleri on April 27, 2011, 09:57:41 am
It seems to me that in some cases, this is just devs whinging that they have to re-think their projects. For example, K2 really does seem to be complaining that 1.6 has an ACL solely because they made one for their component. For me, that's not a good reason to not upgrade and reminds me of a time a few years back when phpBB 3.0 was released (and the Categories Hierarchy mod which had many of the features long before 3.0 chose to remain with the 2.0 series). Sadly, phpBB is still around and CH isn't and there never was an 'official' upgrade path to map CH's features to phpBB3's.

The current situation with 3PD sounds a lot like the CH community and unless one plans to fork Joomla (something that CH started to do), users won't stick around forever. From what I have seen (as a CH contributor!), many users will see j1.5 and think 'obsolete' and wonder why a major addon hasn't 'upgraded' yet. They'll allow some dev time to 'catch up' after a release, but that only goes for so long. Secondly, new users won't be using j1.5. In my opinion (which might be in the minority here), we should really start focusing on 1.6 and adding backwards compatibility with 1.5 rather than 1.5 and forwards compatibility with 1.6. If we don't change our mindset here, we'll slowly slip into obsoletion as Joomla pushes new releases and we're stuck on 1.5 (as we were with j1.0/j1.1).

And before I get criticised for what I'm saying, please be aware that I'm doing my hardest to get vm2 working perfectly with j1.6. I'm aware that we're wanting to get a new beta release out soon and can't promise 1.6, but I'm committing myself to promise 1.6 compatibility by the gold release of vm2.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on April 27, 2011, 15:43:38 pm
...please be aware that I'm doing my hardest to get vm2 working perfectly with j1.6 ...
Thanks!
BTW - Last week I discovered the first "extension" for VM2(Beta3):
http://www.joomlack.fr/en/Joomla-extensions/Menu/patch-maximenu-virtuemart.html (http://www.joomlack.fr/en/Joomla-extensions/Menu/patch-maximenu-virtuemart.html)  :D
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on April 27, 2011, 16:31:34 pm
but I'm committing myself to promise 1.6 compatibility by the gold release of vm2.
This sounds well but I fear, when we release VM2 final in juli or so then you can already start to port for j1.7
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: impleri on April 27, 2011, 17:08:31 pm
This sounds well but I fear, when we release VM2 final in juli or so then you can already start to port for j1.7
Or you can finally decide to fork from Joomla and not worry about their release schedule. It's a harsh world out there and either we keep up or quickly become outdated and obsolete. Joomla changed their development to a time-based cycle (as does Ubuntu, WordPress, etc). Even Debian claims to have a time-based cycle (though its period is much longer). We can either whinge or do something. I prefer the latter.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Fotis Evangelou on April 27, 2011, 18:22:39 pm
@impleri
Quote
For example, K2 really does seem to be complaining that 1.6 has an ACL solely because they made one for their component.
That's really your assumption. K2 is in the final phase of testing for 1.6 compatibility and will be presented in public on J and Beyond 2011.

Your statement also shows you don't really know K2. K2's ACL has always been for the frontend and even now, far exceeds Joomla! 1.6's stock ACL options. K2's ACL is easy to understand and setup. Joomla! 1.6's ACL (for frontend options) is incomprehensible the least!

I fully agree with Max Milbers here. VM is a free product and the developers are not making any money off VM. Therefore they should not flip out and support Joomla! every 6 months. Support the LTS version which is 1.5.

K2 may be compatible with 1.6 very soon, but a) don't think we'll be suggesting people they use 1.6 for production websites and b) I really doubt power users will even think of switching to 1.6...

Just to clarify, we did not "flip out" either when J1.6 was out. We run a poll and the VAST majority of K2 users said they were not "burning" to switch to 1.6. And that is true. Websites are not desktop computers. If something works just fine, there is no reason to upgrade it to a completely new platform JUST to be able to use 1 new addition only. That's insane...
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: impleri on April 27, 2011, 20:28:51 pm
That's really your assumption. K2 is in the final phase of testing for 1.6 compatibility and will be presented in public on J and Beyond 2011.
You're right. It is my assumption based on that one post above. I have no idea about K2 for Joomla (I've been a user of the K2 template engine in WP since it's early heydays, so for me K2 is always a WP thing).
Quote
Your statement also shows you don't really know K2. K2's ACL has always been for the frontend and even now, far exceeds Joomla! 1.6's stock ACL options. K2's ACL is easy to understand and setup. Joomla! 1.6's ACL (for frontend options) is incomprehensible the least!
This is the exact same arguments made with phpBB2's Categories Hierarchy mod and phpBB3. It might be easier, more intuitive, really cool, whatever. What I read in the post saying K2 is removing support from J1.6 was that Joomla's ACL was encroaching on K2's turf. Joomla's response was pretty clear: K2 (and for that matter VM and other components) are building off of Joomla, not vice versa, and if components want to keep to that, they'll need to live with the changes and be involved in J!'s development process. Cringing every time a new X.Y version is released is not beneficial to any community -- sure, it may have broke something as no dev is perfect and sometimes core devs think that they've communicated well enough to everyone (i.e. 3rd party
devs) that something is going to change, such as the autoloading of MT in the backend (one line of code!) because it's not always necessary. The fact that 3PD were using that bug (which was filed in February -- 10+ weeks ago) to their sloppy advantage isn't a valid argument (caveat: there was a good argument that in calling JToolBar functions --- which depend on MT -- not working is). The fact that Joomla switched to a time-based release cycle also isn't an argument. It's a quick turn around, but they're not the first to do it (WP and Ubuntu, as I've already mentioned, have done it for at least 4 years).
Quote
I fully agree with Max Milbers here. VM is a free product and the developers are not making any money off VM. Therefore they should not flip out and support Joomla! every 6 months. Support the LTS version which is 1.5.
And Joomla isn't a free product? Supporting the LTS version is grand, but that doesn't mean support it to the exclusion of any newer ones. As your first point has shown (and as I have been working on for the past 9 hours), J 1.6.3 isn't suddenly breaking things because of decisions to change the API. The 1.6 API has been pretty clearly defined and blaming 3PD bugs on the next API isn't an argument. I keep going through the diff logs to see where problems 'suddenly' come up and, ironically, it's not Joomla 1.6.3 (or 1.6.2)! Sure, Joomla changed some things from 1.5.x to 1.6.x and it might be just 'to use 1 new addition', but that's also why the timeframe is so short: each cycle adds 'only' 1-2 new features so that (1) it doesn't force a rewrite of a component every time and (2) end users see an active development cycle. Again, look at WordPress: they release a new X.Y roughly every 6 months. Every big release has a few new features, but nothing that really wrecks all plugins. Guess what? That's what Joomla wants to do!

Quote
Just to clarify, we did not "flip out" either when J1.6 was out. We run a poll and the VAST majority of K2 users said they were not "burning" to switch to 1.6. And that is true. Websites are not desktop computers. If something works just fine, there is no reason to upgrade it to a completely new platform JUST to be able to use 1 new addition only. That's insane...
Why do you keep saying 'flip out' that way (just curious as I don't see that in my posts)?
I agree that websites aren't desktop computers. My point is that if 3PD are always lagging behind 1-2 release cycles from the core, they're not going to get new users. New users install whatever's current. I've seen this with the phpBB community and (especially) the Categories Hierarchy community. What's seems to be common in both scenarios can be interpreted as a step towards obsoletion because some 3PD think they're 'too big to fail'. Guess again. Someone else will (it's not a matter of if but when) start to do things faster and just as free, then we're left with maintaining and writing a component for ourselves and our own little insular group (which is what happened with CH, moreso when it decided to fork to phpBB2 into the still-unreleased CH-BB). Personally, I like VM too much to see that happen to it (and to see it happen again). It's that's crazy, then yes I am.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on April 27, 2011, 21:33:01 pm
He-He  :D

I think all the above has become part of any huge open source community. There is a continious process of taking out some pieces of the (Joomla-) puzzle and replacing it with newer pieces. And after spending  a lot of time to put the puzzle (a website, component, etc.) together again and pat yourself on the back for the good work - guess what will happen. New versions of the software pieces you are using will be released and you start over again with looking at the changes (i.e. with something like WinMerge), make all necessary adjustments, spend a lot of time with testing, then look at the beautiful result and ...start over again or take a break and fall behind... ;D
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Fotis Evangelou on April 27, 2011, 23:20:23 pm
@impleri Really... whatever...
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Rob Joyce on April 28, 2011, 17:42:38 pm
1.6 is only a stepping stone to 1.7
It is designed to get all developers components inline to work properly with 1.7
There is no real point in getting the component to SPECIFICALLY work with 1.6 as 1.7 is due out soon anyway. So the point of trying to make it compatible with 1.6 is mute.
I'm on the bug squad for 1.6, there are still tons of bugs going through and many features that still aren't implemented.
I think they are trying to get all the features implemented in time for 1.7 so that they ahve a full product in the end.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: freeme on April 29, 2011, 08:46:21 am
I am not a developer, so my simple question:

How will that be handled in general? I assume 1.6 is a milestone, so if your extension runs on 1.6., it will also be compatible with the next upcoming versions - right? Anything else wouldnt make sense at all...

As this might be the point, it for sure makes sense to adopt extensions to 1.6., as then the major work is already done for 1.7. & 1.8, etc. - until a new major release is coming, whenever that is. Right?
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: beipink on May 02, 2011, 16:47:34 pm
@impleri Really... whatever...
Sorry for the intromission here. Why such arrogance? I guess you have a different opinion but impleri made some fair points there.
I also thought that would  make more sense for VM2.0 to support 1.6+  versions of joomla rather than 1.5 which is already well supported by VM1.1
Considering that within 12months or less (according to joomla.org) support will be dropped for version 1.5 of joomla.
i might be completely wrong here but in my opinion sooner they support the new version better it is for VM  surviving in the future. As impleri, rightly, mentioned competition can come from everywhere any moment.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jenkinhill on May 02, 2011, 17:37:42 pm
beipink, Joomla 1.7 is to be released on 10 July 2011 ( http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1442-wanted-new-features-for-version-17.html ). Joomla 1.6 is only to be officially supported until August 2011. J1.7 is supported until February 2012 as Joomla 1.8 (which is the next long term supported version) is to be released in January 2012. Joomla 1.5 is to be supported until April 2012, which is beyond the end of support for 1.6 and 1.7

This 6 monthly development cycle will be an issue for developers of many components to keep up with, so Joomla developers have built long term supported versions into the cycle, to be released every 18months.

Quote
Long Term Support

Every third major or minor release will be classified as a long term support release (LTS). These releases are officially supported until three months after the general availability milestone of the next long term support release. The longer support schedule is aimed at making transitions for users who seek a longer, more stable release cycle where eighteen months before a major software update makes considerably more sense than six months.

The present unease from developers is related to the release of J1.6.2 which broke many components and commercial templates, suggesting inadequate testing. So 1.6.3 was rushed out, but not before some template suppliers, for example, had started rebuilding their code to work with 1.6.2

VirtueMart will be available and working on on future Joomla versions, but my guess, as J1.7 is to be released in just over 2 months, is that 1.7 should be the version to aim at, but 1.7 won't be available for testing until some time in June.

Important thing to me is to see VM2 working with Joomla1.5 initially and then make whatever changes needed to work with future Joomla versions.

Note that I am not a member of the development team, but try to keep up with what is happening here and in the Joomla world at large.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on May 02, 2011, 18:19:30 pm
You are not part of the development team, but you are part of the team and explained perfectly how we want to handle it.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: beipink on May 03, 2011, 03:33:17 am
VirtueMart will be available and working on on future Joomla versions, but my guess, as J1.7 is to be released in just over 2 months, is that 1.7 should be the version to aim at, but 1.7 won't be available for testing until some time in June.
 
Absolutely no problem with this.

To be fair, that was my opinion rather than a suggestion to what should be done. It is based on my understanding of J1.5 and J1.6. They appear to be 2 different products to me.
 
I try myself to follow everything what's going on with Joomla and VM world and I have to admit I’m kind of disappointed about some choices made by the Joomla Team. (ie making 6 months releases is good breaking compatibility every 6 months or less is not)

Thank you for your effort to both of you Kelvyn and Max.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Bruce Morgan on May 03, 2011, 17:46:55 pm
Frankly, I think the "Joomla Road Map" is a train wreck waiting to unfold.  I was intially excited about J1.6 but the mixed signals from Joomla are scaring people away.  I have no concept of what is driving those decisions.

As for VM, I think a new major release could be exciting.  I am not enthralled with bells and whistles, I am looking for rock solid stability, security and enough functions right out of the box that I can forever more dump the hack that i have been forced to adopt to make a user-friendly and functional site.  Lastly, I would like to see more ability to configure the look and output from admin selectable paerameter tha may be selected from the backend rather than from within the source code.

In summary I think Joomla has already blown it with J1.6.x so let's not let their indecision delay work on a better VM product.  I am not part of the development team and am not even a programmmer, but I do run my own web site and try and my modest little site does not have the resources to hire outside programming help on a regular basis.  I think ther are a lot of users like myself. Keep up the good work.

Bruce
www.pepper-passion.com
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Cergorach on May 04, 2011, 14:15:32 pm
If there is indeed little support from third party developers, I don't see much use for developing/deploying websites in Joomla! 1.6 (or 1.7), especially when (security) updates might actually break a site. An added advantage is that 1.5 will at least be supported until the end of April 2012 (and probably longer if the 2.0 final release will be anything like the 1.6 final release). And even more important, the policy of the Joomla! developers might change again in the coming year and provide us with even longer support for 1.5.

While the time until 1.5 is EOL and 2.0 is available might not be the longest period of time. It might also be a good time for both developers and folks that design/deploy websites to look outside of their Joomla! box. Wordpress, Drupal and Plone are both very popular CMS platforms, I've been meaning to take a serious look at them all and now might be the perfect time to do just that.

I'm just disappointed in Joomla! at the moment, the features that where promised for 1.6 were great, but the dependability of the releases after the final doesn't create a lot of trust in the Joomla! platform. From what I'm gathering of the plans for 1.6 and 1.7, these need to be skipped and three months for migrating from 1.5 to 2.0 is just not long enough imho. What should I advise a client in June/July 2010? Wait six months and hope that 2.0 is ready for release on time, or inform them that they'll need to upgrade their whole site in another nine months and add another significant cost to their website. A lot of companies/organizations that use Joomla! for their websites don't have that kind of budget. If migration from 1.0 to 1.5 was any indication, that wasn't two hours work to migrate everything seamlessly, especially not if your using a lot of components/plugins, etc.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: impleri on May 04, 2011, 20:41:03 pm
Cergorach, don't forget that WordPress has a similar 6-month release cycle minus a LTS version (and has for years!).

A few additional points:
1. While maintaining an LTS release is a good idea, it won't help get new users who want the most recent stable versions of everything. I've seen what happens when 3rd party devs don't 'keep up' with the platform's release cycle (i.e. perception should be a huge concern).

2. Now that the RC has been released, I'm back to getting VM2 working with J1.6. I'm finding that most of it is working perfectly. Some bugs are because code written at the beginning of the VM2 rewrite didn't utilise the 1.5 API to its full extent (or used methods which were in j1.5 for easier adaption from j1.0). Heck, there's still a lot of old PHP4 assign-by-reference =& syntax (which was deprecated in PHP5). I am certain that I'll (and if any of the other devs still are interested, we'll) be able to get the stable release of VM2 working with J1.6.

3. A lot of people are saying the changes from j1.5 to j1.6 for end-users is on the same level of time-consuming as the migration from j1.0 to j1.5. I don't think so. The biggest time is spent in devs adapting things to 1.6. End users shouldn't have any issue (I've now migrated a few corporate sites with complicated setups a few times). Further, since Joomla has a time-sensitive release cycle, newer releases will be even easier (just as the individual upgrades in WP from 2.4 -> 2.5 -> 2.6, etc). Companies won't be needing to invest significant time for any single upgrade after 1.6 because of the time-based release cycle. It took Joomla devs years to go from 1.0 to 1.5 (and years again from 1.5 to 1.6!). That amount of change won't happen in a 6 month release cycle. It will, however, happen over 18 months (i.e. in Joomla's LTS releases). In the end, it'll be a wash: either spend a few short periods of time with each release or a single long period of time with each LTS release.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Stefanos on May 04, 2011, 21:52:19 pm
We are "following" VirtueMart because we love it, as well as it's community. I am currently on j1.5 and waiting for things to get stable with j17 or whatever, in order start thinking of upgrading cause it takes time and a lot of work even for "simple" webmasters.

I only posted here to say this, that we love vm, it's founder, and all it's developers etc.

peace
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Cergorach on May 05, 2011, 12:24:26 pm
impleri, as I said, haven't looked at them in detail yet. And my issue isn't the six month release schedule, it's that 1.6.x or 1.7.x security/bugfix releases might have a serious impact on installed components, plugins, etc. Not only that, but that some major developers are not really supporting 1.6.x, that is a major problem imho. It's great that you are still dedicated to supporting VM for 1.6, I wish everyone was that dedicated. But what I read from other blogs, it's almost an unsupportable situation for some: https://www.akeebabackup.com/home/item/1093-joomla-16-will-be-partially-supported.html
Akeeba Backup is a very important package for a lot of websites, because not many webhosters provide adequate backup features themselves (especially not for the databases). "Operational issues due to the ever changing API." does not generate a great deal of trust in me (or my clients) for 1.6 or 1.7. Stability is more important then feature set in most professional cases.

An LTS release is great for all those folks that want to get a simple website out of the door without having an upgrade every six months. You have to understand that a lot of the Joomla content contributors aren't very happy with changes to how things work, how they look or where they are located.

The situation I'm afraid of is the following:
- We have a fully working Joomla! 1.6.x website with all the components working perfectly.
- Then there is a Joomla! 1.6.x+1 release that fixes a (few) critical security issues, but it also changes something in the API and it breaks a critical (for the website) 3rd party component. A fix for the component can take up to two months to be released. Then I have three options:
1.) Don't deploy Joomla! security fix and play Russian roulette with hackers, if the site is hacked I will be blamed and when I explain things, I AND Joomla! will be blamed.
2.) Deploy Joomla! security fix and the critical component breaks, ideally it just doesn't function, worst case it completely screws up the website and does bad things with the data. I will be blamed and when I explain things, I AND Joomla! will be blamed.
3.) Pay the/a developer money to fix the component asap, that might be doable if the amount of money isn't breaking the bank and it's a component that is used in a lot of sites (Akeeba Backup for example). But if you have multiple components breaking on a single site, this isn't really an option because you have clients that didn't expect additional fees (especially not high ones) and someone providing support can't absorb the costs without going bankrupt, especially if it happens a few times over the next year.

The upgrades for 1.5 => 1.6 might not be as significant as 1.0 => 1.5, but you still need to do a test migration, check everything, deploy, check everything. And that is only with the Joomla core, chances are that you'll need to do some work on the template and install new versions of most of the components if they even have 1.6 versions (there are component builders that have already stated that they won't support 1.6 for the reasons given above). Some components need to be completely reconfigured and if your particularly unlucky rebuild all of the content (some of the forms components might require that). Doing this two times in the coming nine months doesn't excite many companies. Sure, many 'simple' websites won't have many problems.

I would like to see a year of security fixes for the previous LTS after the release of the new LTS, that should give folks a larger migration window for those that stick with the LTS releases.

What I also would like to see is that bug fix and security patch releases don't break current components or change anything in the core of Joomla that isn't strictly necessary (and then still make sure it doesn't break anything else).

But this of course isn't an issue with VM or it's developers, it's with Joomla! and it's developers.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: nicole2292 on May 05, 2011, 12:55:28 pm
I understand your reasons for this but I am VERY disappointed. Mostly with the fact we were led to believe that as soon as Virtuemart 2 was released it would be compatible with Joomla 1.6.

For this reason I have built a whole website for a client on 1.6 in the last month and I have been sitting here just waiting for Virtuemart 2.0 to be ready... I had told them it would be out very soon and thei site could go live just as soon as this happened. Now what do I do? Rebuild the site in Joomla 1.5? Not possible as I am using some of the new features of Joomla 1.6 and I simply don't have the time... using another shopping cart is my only option :(

FEELING VERY VERY LET DOWN BY THIS NEWS...
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on May 05, 2011, 13:36:43 pm
Well - you will have to tell your customer to be patient, until VM2 might be declared stable and probably includes J1.6 compability - possibly in approximately two months from now. Generally it is not a good idea to promise a customer a working website based on your assumption that a beta or release candidate is working flawlessly. Usually the opposite is true.

I started producing a J1.6.x/VM2 website too, so I have a similar problem. But fortunately I didn't promise anybody a certain release date... :D
In the meantime I will continue to add products to a J1.5.23/VM2RC installation. Importing the VM2 data into J1.7/VM2stable later should be easy, as the VM database tables are the same.

If you filled VM2Beta3 with product data already, you will also have to export/import the data manually into VM2RC or VM2stable, because several database tables were added/deleted/changed in the developing process.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: nicole2292 on May 09, 2011, 07:56:27 am
I was never relying on a beta release to be stable. As I said in my previous post I was waiting for the stable release of VM2 which was supposed to work with J1.6. My understanding from this forum is that even the final stable release will not have J1.6 support as we were originally told it would.

Is that the case? Or is the final stable release still going to have J1.6 support?
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: beipink on May 09, 2011, 09:10:23 am
I was never relying on a beta release to be stable. As I said in my previous post I was waiting for the stable release of VM2 which was supposed to work with J1.6. My understanding from this forum is that even the final stable release will not have J1.6 support as we were originally told it would.

Is that the case? Or is the final stable release still going to have J1.6 support?
If you read all the posts, it appears that by the time VM.2 Stable is out,  J1.6! will be near the end of is cycle.  The plan for VM2.0 or 2.1 is to support J1.7! which is due to be released on 11/07 (if i remeber correctly)
 
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: franzpeter on May 09, 2011, 11:17:08 am
As a shop owner (user), I do not see those big 'advantages' to switch to Joomla 1.6. In the case of VM 2.0 it will run with Joomla 1.5.xxx too as a MVC component. But, all those payment or shipping extensions need a new developement to work with VM 2.0 and above. And those plugins must be stable. Customers do not like shopping carts which are buggy. So a little bit more patience for all those, who express there complaints about, that VM does not actually work with Joomla 1.6 and VM 2.0 may not actually work with Joomla 1.6. Therefore I agree with jenkinhill. There are some other shopping cart solutions, praised as ultimate up to date, which even do not work with UTF 8 tables.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: NewGroove on May 12, 2011, 06:14:58 am
Any chance of an OFFICIAL comment regarding when VirtueMart is likely to be fully compatible with Joomla 1.6 and/or 1.7?
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on May 12, 2011, 21:42:21 pm
It is many times stated in this post.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: NewGroove on May 13, 2011, 14:37:10 pm
It is many times stated in this post.

@Milbo, I read this thread in-full before posting my question. The reason for my post is that the statements are somewhat ambiguous. Focusing on statements that appear to have some "official" status:


VirtueMart will be available and working on on future Joomla versions, but my guess, as J1.7 is to be released in just over 2 months, is that 1.7 should be the version to aim at, but 1.7 won't be available for testing until some time in June.

Important thing to me is to see VM2 working with Joomla1.5 initially and then make whatever changes needed to work with future Joomla versions.

Note that I am not a member of the development team, but try to keep up with what is happening here and in the Joomla world at large.

Then you follow-up with:

You are not part of the development team, but you are part of the team and explained perfectly how we want to handle it.

Then we have:

2. Now that the RC has been released, I'm back to getting VM2 working with J1.6. I'm finding that most of it is working perfectly. Some bugs are because code written at the beginning of the VM2 rewrite didn't utilise the 1.5 API to its full extent (or used methods which were in j1.5 for easier adaption from j1.0). Heck, there's still a lot of old PHP4 assign-by-reference =& syntax (which was deprecated in PHP5). I am certain that I'll (and if any of the other devs still are interested, we'll) be able to get the stable release of VM2 working with J1.6.

Reading the above posts, I am unclear whether the Development Team is aiming to have compatibility with Joomla 1.6 by the release of VirtueMart 2.0 Stable; or whether compatibility is being postponed until some time after the release of Joomla 1.7.


Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: beipink on May 13, 2011, 15:24:20 pm
@NewGroove
Mate, it is as clear as water. Milbo who is the lead developer will focus to get VM2.0 stable out asap.  jenkinhill highlighted the reasons that triggered this move.
Impleri will work to fix the compatibility issues with J1.6 without guarantee VM2.0 will work flawless on J1.6! Bear in Mind that in 2months time J1.7 which is a slightly modified version of J1.6 will be out an J1.6! will become obsolete.
Currently VM2.0 is in BETA and at this point in time it's better to focus the resources to get out VM2.0 or 2.1 stable.


Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on May 13, 2011, 21:06:53 pm
thanks beipink.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: inalyricalcoma on May 17, 2011, 12:03:22 pm
Hello,

thanks for your work, VM needed a recode!

i'm sorry to bump this topic again, but i need to build an e-commerce for a client within the next weeks and i need to plan my work :(

is there any update on the issues with J1.6?

or is there a list or something i can use to do part of this work myself?

regards,

p.s. i know J1.5 is actually a better choice, but i'm forced to use J1.6 for a couple features (mostly about the way it handles languages / templates)
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on May 17, 2011, 13:10:05 pm
one possibility would be to start with adding products into the next Release Candidate (probably within the next few days), and export the VM2 database tables into a later version that is compatible with J1.7, which is scheduled for the 10th of July. The VM2 database tables would be the same for J1.5.x and J1.7.x.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: djliquid on May 25, 2011, 22:06:12 pm
one possibility would be to start with adding products into the next Release Candidate (probably within the next few days), and export the VM2 database tables into a later version that is compatible with J1.7, which is scheduled for the 10th of July. The VM2 database tables would be the same for J1.5.x and J1.7.x.

Look forward to it
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jeorcal on June 03, 2011, 07:39:42 am
one possibility will be to switch to Hikashop , full working for J16
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on June 05, 2011, 16:09:40 pm
vm rc2 is compatible with j1.6, the question is how long it lasts.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: beipink on June 06, 2011, 06:29:03 am
that's a good question Max......The time will answer that :P
On another note, I have to admit that lately I'm more thrilled by nooku project than joomla itself. 
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on June 06, 2011, 20:57:33 pm
Then you will be happy that we follow more and more nooku conventions
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: awesomeness on June 19, 2011, 19:23:54 pm
If VirtueMart is skipping J1.6, and going to J1.7, my question is "Where does it end?".  Joomla is moving to a fast-paced release schedule.  So as soon as J1.7 is out, the same exact statement will be true that "the next Joomla release will be out in a couple months, so we're skipping this one".  It seems that there needs to be a fundamental change in the way VirtueMart releases are handled, because holding off "since the next release is close" is going to be a perpetual issue.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on June 19, 2011, 19:55:29 pm
It does make sense to skip J1.6 for several reasons. One is that J1.6 contains a lot of bugs. Another one is that it doesn't make a lot of sense to invest a lot of time to make the brand new VM2 J1.6.3 compatible and a week later J1.6.3 bug fixing stops because J1.7.0 will be released. However, VM2 RC2 and VM2stable might run on J1.6.3. A VM Team member is working towards this and most of VM2's current SVN version already works on J1.6.3 and J1.7 Alpha.  From the users's point of view J1.7 is basically a J1.6.3 with 350+ bug fixes and very few new features. (At present the Joomla guys are a week behind schedule with their J1.7 Beta)...  ;)

I suppose the VM developers agree that making VM2 stable has priority over meeting certain release dates, which is what the Joomla guys did the other way round with J1.6 and probably one of the reasons why it was released with plenty of bugs.

The "fast-paced release schedule" of future Joomla versions will most of the time just be small update patches like most of us have seen in the past for J1.5.x. And the release of new Joomla versions doesn't automatically stop your VM shop to work. There are plenty of old VM shops online which haven't been updated to the latest version for years. Concerning VM2, 'Akeeba Live Update' has just been implemented into the system, so theoretically the developers could feed you with a VM2 update every day at 12 o' clock noon except on Weekends and Holidays  ;D
...But I'm shure most shop owners wouldn't want to deal with daily updates once their shop is online
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: korb on June 20, 2011, 13:39:58 pm
vm rc2 is compatible with j1.6, the question is how long it lasts.

I really like nooku ideas, but I couldn't check them as it is far away from my knowledge right now. I couldn't even install nooku and I can Joomla since mambo...

Regards,
Danny
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on June 20, 2011, 15:38:35 pm
You tried the wrong version, I am quite sure.

Try the nooku server
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: sscheidegger on June 27, 2011, 14:48:38 pm
Hey

Looking forward to VM2 (with J1.6 or J1.7, I don't mind). For the moment I'm just waiting for a version to start testing and designing. Any updated estimates on when VM2 RC2 will be released?

Thanks a lot!

Greets,
Stefan
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Martyn Batten on June 28, 2011, 13:40:17 pm
I am amazed, if the Joomla team stopped upgrading there would be uproar. It took so long to bring 1.6 in everybody was complaining that it was late and now everybody is complaining that it's being improved.

As for VM, this is a brilliant product, I have worked with many profit making solutions which do not touch VM. If VM team choose to stop supporting 1.6 and support only 1.7 then thats a good decision.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: appJahn on July 08, 2011, 11:14:32 am
We have to build 2 new sites, both based on j1.6. Our plan due to the expected release plan is:
* set up these pages with vm2 rc2 and j1.6 within the next days for demo purposes and to enable the customers to enter their product data
* upgrade to v2 and j1.7 as soon as available
* going live in 1-2 months (not really time-critical)

So my questions are:
* will it be possible to migrate the product data from vm2 rc2 to vm2 stable?
* whats the actual time schedule for rc2? you expected to release it these days. Is this still true?

Please let me know, if we can proceed like this. I would really appreciate to use vm in these projects.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on July 12, 2011, 21:11:39 pm
We have to build 2 new sites, both based on j1.6. Our plan due to the expected release plan is:
* set up these pages with vm2 rc2 and j1.6 within the next days for demo purposes and to enable the customers to enter their product data
* upgrade to v2 and j1.7 as soon as available
* going live in 1-2 months (not really time-critical)
You are exactly the people why we call it RC and not final, because we neeed people like you to find the final problems. You can expect our support, you may contact me via pm.

So my questions are:
* will it be possible to migrate the product data from vm2 rc2 to vm2 stable?
to 100% ! An updater is already implemented.

* whats the actual time schedule for rc2? you expected to release it these days. Is this still true?

the core is ready since friday, we are just fighting with the all in one installer for the modules and the plugins.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Jeff on July 13, 2011, 17:37:28 pm
OK, I have installed VM2 RC1 into Joomla 1.6.1 and I come up with the results in the attached screen shot. Does anyone have an idea what might be the issue on this one?

Thanks and KUDOS to the VM team. (http://)




[attachment cleanup by admin]
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on July 13, 2011, 19:28:16 pm
The Virtuemart language file isn't loaded. Solutions have been placed in this forum section a number of times. However, I suppose you are mixing up your VirtueMart version number. The incompatible language file was a problem with one of the Betas and RC1. VM2RC2 will not have this problem but isn't released yet (probably will be very soon). Your Joomla version is also an outdated version. Use 1.6.5 instead of 1.6.1.  ;)
If you want to play with the old VM2 versions see here: http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=85976.msg282697#msg282697 (http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=85976.msg282697#msg282697)
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Jeff on July 13, 2011, 19:43:16 pm
Thank you jjk. I did search a bit but figured I would try a shortcut and I appreciate your guidance.

Best

Jeff
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: ed_ro on July 16, 2011, 17:59:29 pm
the problem with the language files was quite easy to fix but i have no paymet method installed . how can i install them ? i only need paypal module . the version used on the current version of vm (j1.5) is it compatible?
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jenkinhill on July 16, 2011, 18:47:43 pm
http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=86673.msg291498#msg291498
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: shopwelsh on July 18, 2011, 11:45:21 am
Is the a VM2 version that works so I can play about with it and experiment?
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on July 20, 2011, 20:27:07 pm
A small announcment:

Since yesterday j1.7 is released and therefore we only test virtuemart 2 for j1.5 and j1.7 latest.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: mandingueiro on July 21, 2011, 19:33:08 pm
Hello all :)

It's great to see VirtueMart advancing to the next level (nooku) etc, you guys are doing a great job.

I'm in a dilemma though: Currently I have an J1.5 running w/ VM 1.1.7, listing about 3500 products. I wanna rebuild the whole site, using VM2 RC2. Thing is, I don't know if I should stick to J1.5 or go with 1.7, or maybe Nooku server? I'm willing to try and fix bugs that I may encounter and contribute to the VM community but I'm not a very experienced developer.

Thank in advance :)
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on July 21, 2011, 20:14:07 pm
Thing is, I don't know if I should stick to J1.5 or go with 1.7, or maybe Nooku server?
Lets try nooku server. Write me a pm, then I will support you via skype. I must say I dont know myself if I would take j1.5 or j1.7.

J1.5 is just a very experienced product now.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: lindapowers on July 26, 2011, 07:15:40 am
Is well know that Joomla 1.6 is just a beta tester before 1.7 and building a shop there is up to you...
There are bugs in 1.6 so how is Virtuemart going to work fine on a CMS that is buggy as hell. Use Joomla 1.5 and VM 2.0.

Theres not one single advance or new feature worth changing from Joomla 1.5 to 1.6, yes I've tested it too and pls correct my ignorance, but I really dont see anything worth changing. ???

If you can build a stable shop in 1.5 why on earth would you change to 1.6?

Maybe some programmers and technicians could realise the advantage of 1.6 but the average user or shopper admin won't see it. I couldn't even think of a good excuse to tell my boss to update joomla 1.5 to 1.6.

When 1.7 or even 1.8 are out and stable... well thats another story.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Roues on July 27, 2011, 07:22:36 am
Theres not one single advance or new feature worth changing from Joomla 1.5 to 1.6, yes I've tested it too and pls correct my ignorance, but I really dont see anything worth changing. ???

For example, one of the most useful innovations in Joomla 1.6+ it's Alternative Layouts (http://docs.joomla.org/Layout_Overrides_in_Joomla_1.6)
Now in the template, you can not just override default views, but also create your own:

\templates\template\html\com_virtuemart\category\default.php
\templates\template\html\com_virtuemart\category\mycoolcategoryview.php
\templates\template\html\com_virtuemart\virtuemart\default.php
\templates\template\html\com_virtuemart\virtuemart\mycoolfrontview.php
Title: VM2 and j1.7
Post by: samsontumanyan on August 12, 2011, 12:17:05 pm
Hello!
I would like to know when is scheduled Virtuemart 2.0 final version? I urgently need to change a site and I want to do it on a bunch of Joomla1.7/Virtuemart 2.0.
Thanks in advance for your response!
Sincerely, Samson Tumanyan.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on September 06, 2011, 16:18:53 pm
The final version is planned for the next week/s. Working on j1.5 and j1.7
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Claus Olsen on September 08, 2011, 10:24:09 am
Nice ! I gues 1000+ people are waiting for that to happen :o)
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Mackelito on September 15, 2011, 10:24:20 am
The final version is planned for the next week/s. Working on j1.5 and j1.7

Is it released yet? (just woundering if it´s just me who cant find it hehe)
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on September 15, 2011, 10:45:00 am
Please read here http://virtuemart.net/news/list-all-news/407-virtuemart-2-workshop-in-mallorca-4000-committs
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Mackelito on September 15, 2011, 10:57:44 am
So I should use the "virtuemart1.9.8.RC2G_extract_first.zip" and not the "com_virtuemart_2.0-RC.zip" version?

Just abit confusing ;)
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on September 15, 2011, 10:59:50 am
Yes
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: healthtrainer on September 20, 2011, 23:26:54 pm
Yes
Sorry mr Milbo,
I have a website in joomla 1..6.3,what do you suggest ? uptodate until J 1.7.x?
Cause I d' like to install Virtuemart 2.0 RC ....For the normal "production " you suggest it or shall I until the official Virtuemart 2.0? Will be compatible with Joomla 1.8.x. in January 2012?
As I read shall I download  "virtuemart1.9.8.RC2G_extract_first.zip" at first?
and which are the other step? SO i Mean to publish the Virtuemart cart and so on.
I did some installation of Virtuemart.But now I runned your version it's a little bit confusing I can show tih the J 1.6.3 is it possible.
In this case shall I uninstall  some components and modules HOw does it works?
thank and regards,
healthtrainer
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on September 21, 2011, 13:55:05 pm
Dont use j1.6. Joomla has to main series. The old, but proven j1.5 and the new line with j1.6 -j1.7-2.5 (1.8 is renamed to 2.5).

Vm2 is supporting both series, the latest j1.5 and the latest j1.7 and higher. So update your page to j1.7 and install then vm2.

Or in other words we support the LTS (Long-Term-Support) and the lates STS (Short-Term-Support).
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: healthtrainer on September 21, 2011, 17:40:03 pm
Dont use j1.6. Joomla has to main series. The old, but proven j1.5 and the new line with j1.6 -j1.7-2.5 (1.8 is renamed to 2.5).
Hello Mr. Milbo,many thanks,in matter of the fact the Joomla team make us crazy cause the update sofast and many times in a year.
One more question,do you think that I'll catch also the Italian translation for VM2.0.
And Wichich ist the right file I Have to download the 1.98G o allinone.
Thanks+Best regards,
healthtrainer
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on September 21, 2011, 20:55:19 pm
Concerning the italian language files see here: http://forum.vmitalia.net/index.php?topic=8389.0 (http://forum.vmitalia.net/index.php?topic=8389.0)
VM2 RC1.9.8.G is here: http://dev.virtuemart.net/attachments/download/322/virtuemart1.9.8.RC2G_extract_first.zip (http://dev.virtuemart.net/attachments/download/322/virtuemart1.9.8.RC2G_extract_first.zip)
Unzip the downloaded file first and then install the two seperate .zip files with the Joomla installer.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on September 21, 2011, 22:32:54 pm
btw the list of features, maybe not completed :-D

http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=91199.msg299316#msg299316
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Sydiom on November 14, 2011, 14:46:39 pm
We are now in November 2011. Any news on VM2 working with J1.6? Or J1.7?
I am still developing everything in J1.5.23 and VM1.1.9 but am of course getting worried that support will fall away for these soon.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on November 14, 2011, 14:59:11 pm
Just download virtuemart1.9.8.RC2M_extract_first.zip from here: http://dev.virtuemart.net/projects/virtuemart/files (http://dev.virtuemart.net/projects/virtuemart/files) and see if it works for you. VM2 is J1.7.x compatible for a while already. J1.6.x is not supported.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Sydiom on November 14, 2011, 15:15:59 pm
Thank you JJK. Just to be absolutely sure that I am on the same page as everyone else, is virtuemart1.9.8 known as VM2?
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: jjk on November 14, 2011, 15:37:04 pm
Yes, VM 1.9.8.x are just developer version numbers (Release Candidates) which were chosen to keep the numbers smaller than the final 'Stable' release of VM 2.0
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: sscheidegger on November 24, 2011, 08:44:58 am
Hey, is there an updated estimation for the release of VM2? Will it be for J1.7 until the end of the year or rather for J2.5 in January?
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: sscheidegger on November 29, 2011, 14:58:41 pm
I wonder how much Joomla will change in the following versions. If I understood their roadmap correctly they will release a "completely new" version every 1.5 years. I understand that like this Joomla will make a lot of progress. But I'm not sure if this is a very good plan. One of the good things about Joomla are the many 3rd parity extensions. I don't see how the developers of these extensions will manage to keep up with this roadmap. It's allmost a year since J1.6 has been released now. But when I need a certain extension, often I find sth. for J1.5 only... How will this go on? It's not just a problem the VM dev team is facing, but also every guy who developed a neat little extension for Joomla!
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: Milbo on December 01, 2011, 11:06:10 am
Yes. They, or we must find the right way in the middle.

Not changing too fast. But often it is impossible to prevent incompatibilities.
Title: Re: VM2 and j1.6
Post by: lindapowers on January 04, 2012, 09:26:38 am
Yeah I really don't like that Joomla development progress, now I have my Joomla 1.5 and VM 1.1.8 with 3rd party components such as artio vm invoice  which resulted in a lot of modified code to create a perfect website for our needs.

And now we have to move to VM 2.0 and joomla 2.5? and in 2 years we will have to upgrade again?

This would be great if updates we reach the point were updating is automatic and not changing template, components  and basicly every aspect of your website.

What If I stick to joomla 1.5 and VM 1.1.8, will my site be insecure?

Frustrating ;D