VirtueMart Forum

VirtueMart 2 + 3 => Virtuemart Development and bug reports => Topic started by: claesbas on February 20, 2016, 20:57:57 pm

Title: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: claesbas on February 20, 2016, 20:57:57 pm
We (my web agency) are starting to use GitHub more and more and even me as a none developer like some of the features and issue trackers etc that a website lite GitHub has.

I really feel that Joomla CMS has gone thorugh much faster phase of development when it changed over to GIT and GitHub.

Would a move to Git / GitHub be benfitial in the long term for VirtueMart?

Max, what is you thoughts on that? Do you prefer SVN and are there any benefits?
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Studio 42 on February 21, 2016, 11:12:26 am
Hi,
we have already talk about that with milbo and he don't wan't change.
I prefer github too, because sometime it's only some line of code or need to be tested and approved.ON using branch and fork, you can do this public, without need to wait that a member add it in official releases.
So community side, github is better and with github for windows, it's easier to use and you can directly edit your fork online, for little changes.
And i think most developper know git better then svn.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: welrachid on February 21, 2016, 14:08:21 pm
Im not too familier with git and github.. but im trying to get it to know better:
Im still unsure on how the all fork/pull requests work and all that but i did manage to make contribution that are not accepted yet.
https://github.com/welrachid/

With that said i understand that svn does not allow this public contribution. Is that correct? Therefore it must go through other channels, for example forum.virtuemart.net

the real question is however whether or not VM development would go faster. The answer to that in my opinion is solely a regard of whether there is enough people that understands it in it full. For me as a new (approx 1 year) VM user/developer it is hard to see more than a handful of people being able to answer most questions. people like studie42, gjc web design, milbo, PRO and jenkinhill
Its "this" number that needs to increase before i find it relevant to stay on svn or go to git.

Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: claesbas on February 21, 2016, 14:22:40 pm
What I feel is that this forum is not a good solution as an "issue tracker" ... Thats what I like about GitHub the most, and issue is started, fixed and closed. Or resovled through some other thing. And there is a good track record of all the issues. I get a feeling Joomla really has progressed with lots of fixes since this begun with that community.

Maybe keeping SVN but get a real "bugtracker" thing ... bugtracker.virtuemart.net or whatever.

Still GitHub does it all.

But again, Im not a developer and I should not have a dog in this fight as I don't know the ins and outs of really developing with GIT/GitHub. However it seems quite a lot of successful project have moved to GitHub and that is why Im bringing this up.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: lindapowers on February 21, 2016, 14:37:06 pm
http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=131277.0

And yes, more developers will join.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Studio 42 on February 21, 2016, 15:08:03 pm
Advantage of Github, is that you have not to be developer. Only to register.
And you can check open issues. Some have already partial fix,or have only the idea, or only bug reports, so Github can be used in any level and you can quick propose any fix.
Of course for permanent team developper, it's easier to stay with SVN.
But seens Joomla is in github for eg. It's easier to send some fix and ideas(rejected or not), you don't need anymore to find the right person in forum or write in tracker. And all is public and easy to find, so i think more people try the last releases and send fixes.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: claesbas on February 21, 2016, 18:31:36 pm
http://forum.virtuemart.net/index.php?topic=131277.0

And yes, more developers will join.
Oh, missed this one (sorry for doing another thread). It has been discussed. I suppose nothing has changed. Still a bugtracker would be a good thing. Im +1 for GitHub :-)
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: maxispin on February 21, 2016, 21:50:52 pm
I am not sure if the place is right (http://docs.virtuemart.net/tutorials/development/100-svn-download.html), but trying to use SmartSvn for downloading the trunk+braches, I do get all the time "The server sent a truncated HTTP response body". It downloads a while then stops for (server side?) error.

But to the question asked, The easier the system, the more it gets peoples interest. Vote for GitHub
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Milbo on February 22, 2016, 15:06:52 pm
Did you read?
http://dev.virtuemart.net/projects/virtuemart/wiki/Setting_up_a_Development_Environment

oha and yes, you found some old page for vm1.1, yeh would be nice to get help there.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: StefanSTS on February 22, 2016, 21:00:57 pm
A bug tracker needs man power to maintain it, even I wanted a tracker a year ago or so, even got the admin access to the one that is already there, but unused.

And then I found out, it is not really needed, it only bloats the work, because someone would have to maintain that beast. The main thing about bug trackers is, people just file bugs, but the bugs are already filed a few times before, and then another one, and in the end, somebody has to clean up. Same like with this thread, only here, nobody has to clean up, you can read it or leave it. I remember the GIT discussion about four times in the last two years. Always time invested, because it wasn't searched for the bug/thread/topic, or it wasn't found.

Anyone who wants to report bugs, can do that here, anyone who has a fix, can post a fix for it, you just need to setup your SVN and send a patch. Even I could do that. It is just a few clicks away.

And if you are doing good work and are committed and you don't break two things with your patch when you fix one, Max might even decide to give you the right to commit something yourself. There are a few people now, who can commit. With this restricted procedure the headaches and introduced bugs are much less, you can definitely see that if you check the code quality.

A simple search through the forum always gives me the answers I need. So my bugtracker is the forum.

Stefan

Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: maxispin on February 22, 2016, 21:55:33 pm
Did you read?
http://dev.virtuemart.net/projects/virtuemart/wiki/Setting_up_a_Development_Environment

oha and yes, you found some old page for vm1.1, yeh would be nice to get help there.

Thanks Milbo. I didn't.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: balai on February 23, 2016, 12:45:43 pm
Quote
A bug tracker needs man power to maintain it, even I wanted a tracker a year ago or so, even got the admin access to the one that is already there, but unused.
Of course it needs man power but it's the most valuable tool of a project.

A forum is not designed to be a bug trucker. Support and bug tracking is not the same thing and is not addressed to the same people of a project.

Keeping it close can possibly produce more consistent code but slower development. This could be addressed with involvement of people to code reviewing and testing
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: claesbas on February 23, 2016, 13:09:01 pm
Im starting to understand the issues here and I actually like Max firm and diligent approach on these subjects. Keep up the good work!

Only thing I saw here that hopefully this thread could/lead to is that the documentation to get access to the SVN could be a little easier to find and also it would probalby be good to remove that old 1 seerires SVN completley.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Studio 42 on February 23, 2016, 16:33:50 pm
The problem is that more developper know how to add some changes in github that in SVN and for non developer, you need any knowledge.
And now in github you can directly upload files .
SO you can simply do a fork> upload your file or edit in github the file.
No need to do a patch or anything, on compare releases you can check what is the changes.
And in github you have always managers for the project, so project leader can  close issue, reject pull requests, add new branch  ...
So only this managers can update main branch. SVN have absolute not any advantages at all!
Does someone give me a good reason why SVN is better ?
I don't find any today ;)

Some good example, is that i fixed some bugs in github, I had never installed SVN to do this.
In github i use mostly direct file edit and test the zip file. No need to install anything for small fixes
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Milbo on February 25, 2016, 19:36:39 pm
and you can still create patches for svn using your git
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: claesbas on March 09, 2016, 16:28:37 pm
https://git.ispconfig.org/ what is this they use here? Its some kind of GIT system one can install locally?

I really recommend ISPconfig for all you web agencies out there! We have now skipped cPanel and Plesk after 4 years of using those to a free ISPconfig!
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: PostHistorie.nl on May 13, 2016, 15:43:24 pm
To answer your question (the thread topic): yes, they would.
I speak for myself: I was going trough some virtuemart PHP code this week and noticed a couple of minor spelling errors, and thought let's create a patch.... and ultimately ended up here:

http://dev.virtuemart.net/projects/virtuemart/wiki/Setting_up_a_Development_Environment

And there is no bug tracker.

So this seems just too much for some spelling errors, barriers need to be lower. And Github specifically takes care of this (issue tracking, merging, forking etc.).

Yes, I can create a patch with patch(1) or diff(1) and email/post them but that is not how you want to do things anymore (this is not the 90s).

But apart from my opinion (which you may disagree with) when even old tools like emacs move to git (https://www.masteringemacs.org/article/emacss-switch-to-git) or when Bitkeeper (a source code version control system: previously used to host the kernel and the direct reason for the development of git) creates a presence on github itself (!!) https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper) it should be very clear where you project should be to attract developers.

And that last part is the real question. It is not about svn vs. git. It is about, does Virtuemart want/need new/more developers to push development forward or does the Virtuemart core team think this is not needed (also entirely possible). But if the answer to the former question is yes, than git (and specifically github) is where you need to be. Go to where the developers are.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: jenkinhill on May 13, 2016, 17:21:18 pm
Quote
does Virtuemart want/need new/more developers to push development forward

In my view, no. And this is my reason why:  There were a lot of "developers" working on VM2 in the early days of that version, and it became a real buggy code mess. Most of these dropped out in due course. And when it was time to start work on VM3 intitially progress was very slow with the need to clean out the parts that were not needed, buggy or simply non-functional.  So VM3 is effectively a full rewrite, with less dependancy on Joomla core so it is less affected by Joomla updates. If anyone finds a bug it is reported usually in the forum, most are picked up and referred to Max, and if acted on are tested within a small group. It works!

Of course what is needed is more people who can write good documentation for users. 
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Studio 42 on May 14, 2016, 11:12:24 am
@jenkinhill : only 3 developper was working on VM2. ANd what you don't remember is that VM2 was a complet rewrite from scratch, only the tables was reused and all feature in Vm3 was already in VM2.
The API was wrote since the beginning, to reuse code for all controller, model, table, view, JS api, translatable fields, plugins ...  so VM3 is a simple evolution of VM2 and is only possible because with max and valerie, we have wrote it so.
So yes Vm2 was not perfect, but the general structure is exacly the same in VM3 as vm2.
And yes, VM3 is better than vm2, and vm2 is better then vm1. If this would be the opposite, it would raise questions or not ?
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: thelordofweb on December 17, 2016, 16:23:33 pm
It will be better to move your SVN repository to GitHub.
You should provide easier option for developers to contribute to the project.

Even I post a patch to the forum, I am not sure it will be merged because it could be forgotten.
The pull request on GitHub are much more useful. Everyone will be able to send Pull Request and it will be easier to test and merge them.

VirtueMart is anchored in the past and dying because it moves forward too slow.
Look your competitors.

https://github.com/woocommerce/woocommerce
https://github.com/opencart/opencart

They have enormous closed pull request and move forward so fast.
If you do not change something, VirtueMart will go into the "museum".

I was big fen of VirtueMart. I would like to contribute, improving the code and usability.
However, the way that I have to send patches strongly discourage me.
Even, you create VirtueMart for Wordpress, you will continue to lose contributors.

My suggestion is to find a way to provide VirtueMart distributions (full installer) for Joomla and Wordpress on GitHub.
It has to be easy for downloading (cloning) and installing on localhost.
The contributors will be able to send Pull Request easily on GitHub. They will be able to comment and collaborate each other for every patch.

For example, you can look joomla-cms repository (https://github.com/ITPrism/joomla-cms).

You will have to open the project to the world for more contributors.

Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: AH on December 17, 2016, 16:57:34 pm
Quote
"Would more developers join"

More is not necessarily better.

Who co-ordinates/validates/cleans - manages the quality etc?



Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: thelordofweb on December 17, 2016, 17:26:15 pm
It could be "Release team" just like for Joomla! CMS?

If you are looking for quality you will have to implement unit tests too.

I think, it is time to give new life of the project. I see it in few steps.

1. Set your goal and mission. It could be "Quality ecommerce platform with amazing usability."
2. Move the repository to GitHub and open the project for more developers and contributors.
3. Create teams - Release Team, Test Team, Usability Team,...

Next stage
1. Start VirtueMart v3.1 replacing deprecated/retro code with better one.
2. Provide unit tests.
3. Provide information about code style that has to be followed. PSR-2 (https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/master/accepted/PSR-2-coding-style-guide.md) is enough one.

Every major version (v3.1, v3.2, v3.3, v3.4 ) will remove deprecated/retro code replacing it with better one.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Studio 42 on December 18, 2016, 14:06:44 pm
It could be "Release team" just like for Joomla! CMS?

If you are looking for quality you will have to implement unit tests too.

I think, it is time to give new life of the project. I see it in few steps.

1. Set your goal and mission. It could be "Quality ecommerce platform with amazing usability."
2. Move the repository to GitHub and open the project for more developers and contributors.
3. Create teams - Release Team, Test Team, Usability Team,...

Next stage
1. Start VirtueMart v3.1 replacing deprecated/retro code with better one.
2. Provide unit tests.
3. Provide information about code style that has to be followed. PSR-2 (https://github.com/php-fig/fig-standards/blob/master/accepted/PSR-2-coding-style-guide.md) is enough one.

Every major version (v3.1, v3.2, v3.3, v3.4 ) will remove deprecated/retro code replacing it with better one.

This can be a reason, but you have many other like simplicity to use own patch and merge in your own release, change the code with a simple editor and pull request is very simple, you can do it without adding any tools in your computer, if it's only 1 or 2 files.
I think that it's possible to do a json for the full install and use composer in another repository, so the full pack can always be update directly.
And same for the core AIO.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Milbo on December 21, 2016, 22:01:45 pm
To answer your question (the thread topic): yes, they would.
I speak for myself: I was going trough some virtuemart PHP code this week and noticed a couple of minor spelling errors, and thought let's create a patch.... and ultimately ended up here:

http://dev.virtuemart.net/projects/virtuemart/wiki/Setting_up_a_Development_Environment

And there is no bug tracker.

So this seems just too much for some spelling errors, barriers need to be lower. And Github specifically takes care of this (issue tracking, merging, forking etc.).

You can send the patch here, and write a pn to me. If your patch is nice, you get my skype, when you delivered 3-5 times a nice patch you get direct access. Take a look on the size of our installers, and you will notice that vm3 is a lot smaller than vm2. Code is mainly a matter of quality, not quantity. Adobe for example has a development team of 50 people and say that more people wont enhance the quality. Similar here. There are only 3 people (beside me) who committ code, which has not obvious errors. I have to fix almost any patch. It is very often so, that people send me a patch, tell me that they worked an hour on it and I fix this patch 2 hours. of course happy for the ideas in it, these patches are important ... Svn is almost the same as git. So when you have committ rights, it is the almost the same handling. You can even create patches for SVN with GIT. You can also use the svn with your GIT. So actually, you can use GIT with VM. The pull request is done manually at begin, thats all!

The barrier is not svn or git. The barrier is that VM works with a code guard, me. At begin the svn was almost open for anyone. We had a lot of teams and that leads to the problem that people become lazy in groups. Actually nothing happened. We had exactly this problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_loafing Please read it, really! It is very, very important to understand it. Our code enhances all the time, check the svn. For example we left joomla actually far behind us. That may sound arrogant, but we have here and there another ideology than them. And so from our view point we are ahead, but you may understand better, when you see VM for WP. For example from our view point, unit tests are useless for php. There are more and more people seeing it the same (also in the joomla groups). The problem in php code is that there no units like in a desktop programm, which got designed by software engineers. I start with Java applications for desktop. I know what I am talking about and unit tests are not the right concept for php scripts. We do instead "acceptance tests" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_testing . We do it automated with Selenium and by test users (check the download numbers for the vm3.0.18.x versions! http://dev.virtuemart.net/projects/virtuemart/files

The bug tracker is the forum. I wrote often the reasons for it, I think there is even a FAQ about. The main problem are the users. A tracker is a nice tool, when you have developers as users, which fill the tracker with qualified tickets. But when you have people like here, which start with virtuemart as their first webpage, you need a lot people cleaning the tracker, all the time. We have a tracker, we can reactivate it. But we need moderators and there is the problem. The moderators must be highskilled and all the time in contact with the developers, or read almost any ticket. This is very time consuming. The next problem is that people start to write in the forum, then they would need another login for the tracker and a "redirect post". There is no tracker for smf. It would mean to migrate a more than 10 year old forum. I know you say "if you would use a tracker from begin on, people wouldnt use the forum", but that is not true, because most people look for a simple informel contact and wont use a tracker. So from my viewpoint, a tracker makes a lot more work and we wont gain a lot by it.


Yes, I can create a patch with patch(1) or diff(1) and email/post them but that is not how you want to do things anymore (this is not the 90s).

This barrier is on purpose. Check the post of jenkinhill he explains it very nice from the viewpoint of a webagency. Or just take the security leak in joomla in october 2016. Please read here http://www.fionacoulter.com/blog/improving-quality-control/
it was introduced by a guy who committed only ONE time. This is very suspicious, please read the article of Fiona. This cannot happen in vm! Two reasons. First this guy would not be able to just do a request and some people take a look and say, okey, lets use it. Of course Joomla has also kind of code guards, but they work different. They just look on the tracker, the arguments in the ticket and thats it, mainly. In my case I would take a close look, notice that the whole form isnt used and write a post, "lets remove this deprecated controller!". Second the guy had to contact me, personal. That means he had to hack me. Real shop owners are not interested in the last fancy stuff. They want reliable secure software. Btw joomla is a good example why it is not good to use GIT. From my point of view and I worked a lot with j3 code latly (for wp), j3 has a lower code quality. I think 30% of the code is unused garbage. Legacy, deprecated stuff. The reason is that there is no dirigent and they just do what they want to.

When you really want to enhance VirtueMart, you will notice, yes, there is a door, there is a guard. Yes, but when you are inside, all doors are open. We can be more open, because we have a guard. Do you get the idea?

But apart from my opinion (which you may disagree with) when even old tools like emacs move to git (https://www.masteringemacs.org/article/emacss-switch-to-git) or when Bitkeeper (a source code version control system: previously used to host the kernel and the direct reason for the development of git) creates a presence on github itself (!!) https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper) it should be very clear where you project should be to attract developers.
We had a git and the user who opened it, closed it. He finished his examen and then stopped it. I said to him, yeah, of course, open a Git. We could reorganise the whole thing, some people use GIT and send the final patch to me. But actually, I never got any patch by the GITlers.

And that last part is the real question. It is not about svn vs. git. It is about, does Virtuemart want/need new/more developers to push development forward or does the Virtuemart core team think this is not needed (also entirely possible). But if the answer to the former question is yes, than git (and specifically github) is where you need to be. Go to where the developers are.

Of course we would like to have more developers, but we need skilled developers. The joomla leak of october is a perfect example, what a wrong "fix" can do. Some weeks ago, I had a customer who had trouble with the new getMyOrder function. He wrote a "fix" in 1 hour. I worked on this function some days (over the years). And the function got changed, maybe 20 times. Even when my programming skills are 5 times worse than his skills it is very unlikely that he fixed it. It is a lot more likely that he just stumbled over a security issue of his plugin and disabled the blocking security lines. Of course, it works for him, yes. and it is also almost "secure" due obscurity (no one knows about), but very, very dangerous to use fixes like that for the core.

I had it really endless times, that small simple patches created bugs later, even they got checked by me and tested by webagencies and endusers. We do the release and someone has suddenly a bug and you check the code and notice, "yes it is a bug and not a misused feature". But joomla guys wouldnt fix this Bug, because they would say "was not promised". I just see a user who got used to a unintended feature and we destroyed it by another feature (in this example it was a simple feature, some people used the payment fee as skonto, with a minus value. But someone added the "feature" that the payment fee cannot be below zero (as fallback) and destroyed the other feature). Or just the new category ajax feature. The guy wrote some hours on it.... it worked for him, I added it, worked for me,.. .and 1-2 weeks later it created days of additional work.

and just today, more than a month later, a team member reported again problem with category ajax. The idea to solve it is simple, but it takes at least 30 minutes to write it. It is only important for people who moved the asset folder and to an update, OMG. lol. Or the added feature for legacy layouts,... today was again an idea which creates work for 30 minutes. :-) you cannot imagine.

And one additional thing. A lot people just post some lines, which should be changed and I do that without any discussion. So a lot people got their fixes into the core without even knowing GIT. In joomla for example it is the opposite. When you post a perfect fix in the forum, it wont get part of the code. Someone must do a pull request according to the rules. So on the other hand, we are a lot more flexible than other projects using GIT.

To summarize:
- We use the codeguard princip by decision and experience
- When we trust you, VM is open as GIT.
- We also implement patches, which do not fullfill the formal standards.
- We even fix not qualified fixes, when the community member has not the skill, else we ask for a bit more effort. :-)
- https://people.redhat.com/rjones/how-to-supply-code-to-open-source-projects/

So when you really mean it serious, nothing will stop you.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Milbo on December 22, 2016, 08:13:06 am
Even I post a patch to the forum, I am not sure it will be merged because it could be forgotten.
The pull request on GitHub are much more useful.

You are a programmer, or? So now tell me, why I should not forget the pull request? Where is the difference? It is very rare that we forget a patch. And sometimes we forget a bad patch intentionally. Usually a patch is integrated witihin some days/weeks. If it got not integrated, write a pn. and there IS  NO difference in GIT.

As long it is not automatic, someone must "answer" the "request". Re- quest => quest comes from question. So if you do your pull request per GIT programm, or per forum progamm, is almost unimportant. Request is request, even by phone and I have to answer it. And we wont change that system and the reason is that hacks like in joomla are not possible that way. and yes, we like to develop a bit slower, but more secure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Milbo on December 22, 2016, 08:25:59 am
It could be "Release team" just like for Joomla! CMS?

......

Every major version (v3.1, v3.2, v3.3, v3.4 ) will remove deprecated/retro code replacing it with better one.

You sound like me, when I started with VM 7 years ago. All of this is grey theory. and when I tried to explain the social loafing effect, most people just did not believe me. But now, it is common knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_loafing and I was exactly right. A small team of 10 people really working together can be more effective than 200 programmers in Groups. These numbers are from a biig, biig company which spend a lot money to checks this.

A good construction worker is maybe 4 times better than a bad construction worker. The factor is 4. The factor in programming is around 20. So a good programmer is 20 times faster and better than a bad programmer. And this are the "normal" numbers, not even the extraordinary numbers. One time, I wrote something in 4 hours and it worked and was clean written. Another 2 programmers worked on that already a week. they did not solve it and the code was horrible. So just talking with these other programmers would already slow down my speed.

and the more people work together, the bigger the overhead. Endless discussions for nothing.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Milbo on December 22, 2016, 08:41:22 am
I was big fen of VirtueMart. I would like to contribute, improving the code and usability.
However, the way that I have to send patches strongly discourage me.

There you see it. Sorry, but when you work with Virtuemart, when you want to make your living with it, you would not care. If you think about, then you may notice how silly it is. When you are a shopowner and you earn $ 5k with your store each month, and you can fix something in the core and earn $ 6k a month, do you really think a serious person would say "I have to send the patch per skype? shit guys, no, then I dont want to earn $ 1000 additionally".

So, when you do think that way, we cannot take you serious. We all live from the software, this is not a game. A serious person would just say "It is not important how the patch comes in it, as long it comes and I earn my money".

So when such a small little barrier discourage you already, we have no use. Really. You are one of this programmers, which creates a small fix in 30 minutes, which creates hours of work later and you would be gone and away. Most of these programmers do not even notice that, because they left the project already. So they think that they are very great programmers, but in fact they are kids. We had that in vm2 times, you may reread the answer of jenkinhill.

So and now think again: "would you really dispense $50 per month, just becaues you must send the patch per email, instead of git"?  See, even for $50 you would send a patch by email, even it takes 5 minutes.

And when the patch is not even worth to take a bit more care, we are not interested. I mean, come on, how silly is that. You write for example 4 hours a patch, but you are too lazy to send it here? Not really, eh. and so I cannot take that serious.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: thelordofweb on December 22, 2016, 14:53:23 pm
Now I see why you lose contributors and fans so fast.
All this is really repulsive.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: GJC Web Design on December 22, 2016, 15:40:06 pm
@Todor Iliev

Quote
All this is really repulsive.

Strange reaction....
I think Max has done a good explanation of his attitude to what after all is more or less his project.. .. the gate keeper principle...

Can u give some examples of changes/ideas etc that u would want to do differently in VM?
As a long time user and VM shop builder there is rarely a situation where i think .. damn.. there is just no way to do this
In the majority of cases I can either do a plugin or core hack and suggest on here if this is core worthy..

If you have thoughts and ideas why not contribute? 

You can always fork the project if you consider your needs aren't being met... but u don't state what your needs are?

The desire to contribute patches when ever you see fit? Patches for what?
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: AH on December 22, 2016, 16:03:56 pm
@Todor Iliev

You have entered the forum and suggested that everything is wrong and how you would sort it all out.

Quote
VirtueMart is anchored in the past and dying because it moves forward too slow.

I trust you see that such an approach might appear to others, that have been around the project for some time, as being somewhat inflammatory.

You decide that you need GIT and start to complain about VM development approach, without giving any suggestions of difficulties you are aiming to overcome, or what you hope to be able to contribute. 

What then is your first suggestion? But to state this:-

Quote
Start VirtueMart v3.1 replacing deprecated/retro code with better one.

Max is not saying that you could not provide support for this, just that you have to use a different method than GIT and yes your suggestions might get rejected.

Quote
Now I see why you lose contributors and fans so fast.

You have (as far as I am aware) contributed nothing, so it may or may not be a loss - it is difficult to judge.

Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: StefanSTS on December 22, 2016, 19:59:09 pm
VirtueMart programmers with their SVN are more like a big piece of wood in an oven.

Before you light it, you have to scrape a few small pieces of the wood and take some newspaper and a bit of patience, but once you got the log burning, it burns and burns and burns and it heats up the project continuously.

While these GIT fires are very often much hotter and can light up the whole thing in no time and look great from far, they die down very fast, because they were just relying on a can of petrolium. Mostly they leave a bad smell behind and the heat vanishes seconds thereafter.

Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Studio 42 on December 22, 2016, 20:13:19 pm
Does some of you already used Github ?
I think you speak from something that you don't know.
It's very easier to use Github, especially if the repo is public.
And noone can break it, only the owner can modify it. You can only fork it.
If you add right to modify git files, it's same as adding right to modify svn files.
And you can revert/merge/changes as in svn.
So all you write is non sense.
But if you want continue with svn, this is now the team problem, but i'm pretty sure that using github, do the project more popular. Because any can get,try,modify or do own release and give back the changes and add some pull request or issue, easy try another branch or pack another release number, if the last release have a bug.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: AH on December 25, 2016, 09:59:32 am
Quote
but i'm pretty sure that using github, do the project more popular.

Does Joomla use GIT ?

Is Joomla becoming increasingly more popular ?

 ;)

Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: balai on December 26, 2016, 14:53:52 pm
Quote
Does Joomla use GIT ?
Yes it does

Quote
Is Joomla becoming increasingly more popular ?
Popular is a general term that primarily regards marketing activities.
If you mean if there were more contributions to the project the answer is yes.
The contributions to the project within 2016 were much more than any other year
https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/graphs/contributors

I don't think that by moving to github is enough to attract contributors but it's a step towards facilitating the process
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: jenkinhill on December 26, 2016, 15:07:06 pm
The contributions to the project within 2016 were much more than any other year

A year in which there seem to have been more buggy J! releases....
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Studio 42 on December 27, 2016, 09:46:11 am
The contributions to the project within 2016 were much more than any other year

A year in which there seem to have been more buggy J! releases....
The problem is how this is managed and not the platform they use. SVN or Git give same result if the managers don't pay attention on the code.
Github repositories are not public writable
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Milbo on December 27, 2016, 22:33:03 pm


The contributions to the project within 2016 were much more than any other year

A year in which there seem to have been more buggy J! releases....

Exactly! It proves my argument

https://svnvsgit.com/

Check #8, #9, #10, #11
My main reason is #8
Thanks to mixed-revision working copies, Subversion allows better concurrent work because only the individual files in question must be up-to-date before promotion.

http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.8/svn.basic.in-action.html#svn.basic.in-action.mixedrevs
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Studio 42 on December 28, 2016, 00:39:22 am
Read perhaps this http://www.ikriv.com/blog/?p=1905, it's a link from https://svnvsgit.com/
I know that GIT is not good in some situation, but not for Virtuemart.
SVN is simply a system that is for closed entreprise project. So yes, if you want to protect your baby,, then svn is the right solution, but for full open  source project not.
If you don't understand, i cannot explain you.
I simple know that for other developpers git is easier to add patch and to use it . For you, this do not change many to use svn or git.
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: jjk on December 28, 2016, 12:13:32 pm
Imho the VirtueMart organization of development has more resemblance with the organization of WordPress development on SVN than with the Joomla development on Github.
See: https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/contribute/svn/ (https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/contribute/svn/)
And it is very unlikely that this will change.  ;)
Title: Re: Would more developers join if VirtueMart SVN was migrated to GIT?
Post by: Milbo on December 28, 2016, 16:27:40 pm
and important to read here

https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/contribute/git/

Quote
Suggested improvements and bugfixes for WordPress should be submitted as patches.

Even you can use GIT, you must also send patches. I say the same all the time. Anyone can create a GIT, which uses the svn as canonical, you can work with it local but patches are still needed.